http://www.praize.com/forums/ en-us no-reply@praize.com Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:34:57 GMT Gossamer Forum by Gossamer Threads, Inc. http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification http://www.praize.com/forum/icons/gforum-logo.png http://www.praize.com/forums/ 50 50 http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119467/?page=unread#119467 Hi Allen, I think you will see from the following some things I do to interpret scriptures. These are mostly for study or learning, so my interpretations could still be off. 1...Compare spiritual things with spiritual things. 2...Study some relevant history. 3...Study relevant maps. 4...Learn meanings of words. 5...Study topics in their context. 6...Read what others have written on the topics. 7...Memorize scriptures. 8...Ask myself questions and make corrections when I must. 9...Compare the words from different versions of bibles when necessary. 10... Interpret symbols within the boundaries set in the scriptures. 11...Meditate on scriptures. 12...I try to do these by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. 13...I pray and ask for help to be successful in my learning and interpreting. 14...I ask others to show me if I am wrong and receive correction if I am able to see that they are right. Sometimes it takes a while before I can be convinced that someone else is right. Sometimes I am never convinced and so I lose when I am wrong. 15...I try to apply faith and patience to these things. 16...Sometimes I fail in my interpretations because I do not know as much as I should about the topics. That does not bother me too much because I know I have limitations. I take comfort in the fact that I am capable of doing some things successfully. I am learning from you, Chris and others, so please, be encouraged and continue to teach. With love and peace to you. Abdool 099457f1d5dbdaff9ffcd5edac6b87c5 Jun 18, 2013, 11:52 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119466/?page=unread#119466 Hi Evangelist_1, For me this is not a debate, but an opportunity for me to demonstrate that I am a slave of righteousness. That form of slavery is a good one. Sarah is a slave here at Praize even though she may not be aware of it. Yes, that is the plan of God the Father, that those who follow Him, who is Holy, should live a Holy life. That is what I called earlier, NEWNESS OF LIFE. It comes with the NEW NATURE that all born again Christians HAVE from the start. A slave is one who is bound to a master or mistress. I am bound to my Master, Jesus. I endeavour to live, as much as I am able, in right ways. Talking after the manner of men, I have FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO HOLINESS. That is my fruit bearing righteousness. I do not know if I have thirty fold, sixty fold, or more. I am positive that I have not made it to a hundred fold. I don't even know how to grade myself to know for sure that I am at least thirty fold fruitful. I have to leave that for the Lord to Judge. I, as a slave of Christ Jesus, will not subject myself to any man to judge me on that. Neither will I judge another servant of Jesus on that. You, however, have said that most born again Christians are on the wrong road. That is your judgement of their fruit of righteousness. I think that while there are born again Christians who are not always living up to their full potential in Jesus, that nevertheless, their souls are saved by another RIGHTEOUSNESS, that is the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and not the FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. And upon this rock I will build my Church (my slaves) and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (or them). Do you balance your teachings with scriptures such as that? Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. With love and peace to you. Abdool 0cb66aba81d6d6b7642d8eb82a246244 Jun 18, 2013, 10:40 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119465/?page=unread#119465 Are you a slave of righteousness? Are you a slave of God? I know I am always asking for definitions, but I feel that it is important in having a debate to both (all) be talking about the same thing. SO... what is your definition of "a slave"? That may sound like a trivial question, but humor me, okay? I think it bears having a definition that can be agreed upon... yeh, like THAT's going to happen! :) Blessings ~ Sarah 43c3064f7489f2eef7ad6ca7c154d15b Jun 18, 2013, 7:54 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bgloriousdays%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119464/?page=unread#119464 G_D, Sure, sure ... but I'ze askin' you something simple ... Are you a slave of righteousness? Are you a slave of God? If so, GREAT ... you are being sanctified unto holiness unto salvation as explained here ... “… so now (BAC sinners) present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. … having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.” (Rom 6:19-22) So, does the debate rage on? 02924b87010891afac11462687289d62 Jun 18, 2013, 6:43 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119463/?page=unread#119463 Allen: Of course there are, (I agree entirely), simple rules for the correct interpretation of scripture. The most straightforward of which is to look at what it originally meant to those it was originally written to. To understand that you need a knowledge of history. The fundamental error often made by readers of the scriptures is to unwittingly impose their own modern mindset on the text, thereby making it mean something that is now inappropriate for the age in which they are living, and thereby misusing the original relevance and truth of the text. The verses on the subjugation of women in church is a good example of this error in interpretation rooted in ignorance of the context and historical setting of the text. By the way, I would be disappointed to see you take your ball home and end the game again. Lets talk more about what you see as the rules for interpreting scripture properly. We might find more agreement on those. Regards Chris. Oh, and I don't remember writing what you claim, about the RC 'chirch' being a 'sister'. Also, though the 'established church', for ceremonial occasions, the Church of England is not 'government owned or operated', where did you get that idea from? Regards Chris 718c55692f0fb770caade628fe0f335b Jun 18, 2013, 2:07 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bgloriousdays%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119462/?page=unread#119462 I'm not going anywhere. I'm just going to make my posts and let everyone else do the same. I'll respond only to people who want an honest discussion and leave all others alone. 0e3a50457d1c7a6ee191930bbdf4f739 Jun 17, 2013, 7:35 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119461/?page=unread#119461 Hi Allen! Ha Ha Ha ha Heh heh heh heeee! Cool it brother, cool it! don't leave us so fast. With love and peace to you. Abdool 140b069db8feba22c5b43f3b39199356 Jun 17, 2013, 7:07 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119460/?page=unread#119460 Hello Evangelist-1, Ha, Ha, Ha, Haaaw! Me thinks Jesus is THE WAY for born again Christians! The road is taken care of for them. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of DEATH, I will fear no evil, for THOU art with me. The road (THE Way) is WITH ME! Ha! Ha! Ha! FOREVER and FOREVER! With love and peace to you. Abdool 07d7bf09bdde74343799eff9b5b2cdc1 Jun 17, 2013, 6:53 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Brdrcofe%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119459/?page=unread#119459 This is exactly why I left Praize before. According to Chaplain Bob, all he needs is the Bible and God's Word. You on the other hand agree that there are methods to be used for interpreying Scripture. If you didn't you would not reseaech anything. Yet you want to attack my Fundamental stand and accuse me of leadind us back into the middle ages. That was not my purpose in starting the thread and, I'll not bother leaving this time. Y'll follow your example though and refuse to answer your posts. In fact, I'll move this to my blog and forget the debates and forums etirely. Besides, Why should I listen to an Anglican who accuses me of following Roman Catholic tradition. That is your "sister chirch" as you once said. It is government owned and operated. So, have fun doing whatever you wish. b7b208e0567fa107a12052d9f0f7b4d8 Jun 17, 2013, 6:08 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bchaplainbob%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119458/?page=unread#119458 Sorry, but even according to your view, you have no business judging my choice of verses. I called you ignorant because the Holy Spirit told me to use that verse. 6d6f48211b587b3ccdbe10a36988c7dc Jun 17, 2013, 5:49 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bgloriousdays%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119457/?page=unread#119457 G_D, art thou claiming to be the promised restrainer? Okay, if thou wishes it, I will boast in the nature of the new covenant, for it is absolutely filled with such wonderful exhortation-warning combos as: “… so now (BAC sinners) present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. … having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.” (Rom 6:19-22) Methinks most BACs today are on the wrong road ... the broad road. f1ee078bbd05d03e715b1e69e6e81f2f Jun 17, 2013, 4:40 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119456/?page=unread#119456 Probiblos: Then who needs the Bible. Let God speak to everyone. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. When I ask God the meaning of something I have read or any other question, I believe I shall receive an answer to my question sooner or later. Often the answers have come from all sorts of other places than just the Bible. God knows what we need to know and how to get the information to us if we really want it. God is certainly not limited to using only The Bible to convey 'wisdom' to his people and God certainly needs no fundamentalist intermediary to impose their own interpretation on what it might mean. God has a multitude of means available and uses all of them often. The trouble is that so many really religious folk think that God only speaks through their interpretation of The Bible. All other interpretations must therefore be wrong. All other explanations suspect and defective. This general suspicion of personal revelation is symptomatic of the 'wavering' in their attitude to God's ability to communicate to those who want to know . To have the true interpretation locked up in a book, and to be the sole custodians of that guarded truth, was the ambition of the Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. The Reformation ended their monopoly on the truth of scripture. The Roman Church hierarchy at that time betrayed and burnt William Tyndale for exposing their power hungry embargo on God's Words, by printing and selling The Bible in English so that the common people could read and understand it for themselves. Now ironically there are those who would seek to limit the truth that can be obtained from it to only that which conforms to their own fundamentalist interpretation of it. In short, the Bible once again becomes a tool for the propagation of a highly selective and conformist interpretation of what is written therein. My how the wheel has turned full circle. Regards Chris. d402fc3739aa7117327226f8711c14ca Jun 17, 2013, 2:53 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119455/?page=unread#119455 Probiblos1948 wrote: Then who needs the Bible. Let God speak to everyone. It is your method of interpretation that has led to errors and denominational differences through the years. It is also obvious we will never agree so, conversation is over. I am a firm believer in 1 Cor. 4:38, "...But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." I refuse to debate with you any further.[/] There is no debate. Either one listens to God or he doesn't. Interesting that you call listening to God ignorance. The problem with man-science is that it can pass misinterpretation down from one generation to the next. There is no misinterpretation with the Author. 3f74f006b0cb896e8cc87635665f717d Jun 17, 2013, 2:19 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bchaplainbob%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119454/?page=unread#119454 Then who needs the Bible. Let God speak to everyone. It is your method of interpretation that has led to errors and denominational differences through the years. It is also obvious we will never agree so, conversation is over. I am a firm believer in 1 Cor. 4:38, "...But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." I refuse to debate with you any further. 8e1c80122202261cbb9bfcd368e34ea8 Jun 17, 2013, 1:39 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119453/?page=unread#119453 Probiblos1948 wrote: There's been too much "man-science" in interpreting the Bible which has led to much misunderstanding. If you want the correct interpretation (as if anything needed to be interpreted) go to God. You are free to believe what you wish but, unless you follow some principles of interpretation you are heading for disaster and/or false doctrine. God chose human language and their rules to reveal Himself. He used human instruments to reach across cultures with the Gospel. The cannon is clued and God speaks to us through His Word and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Paul told Timothy to rightly divide the Word of Truth. This involves study and careful systematic study of God's Word. Your method is subjective leading to what easch individual wants the Bible to say for him. My "method" is to listen to God and what He says Scripture means. To depend on man-science is where one goes wrong and can be led astray. God WILL speak directly to people today is they only listen. 73d397e1700b5a5152c4962a58be1442 Jun 17, 2013, 12:28 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bchaplainbob%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119452/?page=unread#119452 There's been too much "man-science" in interpreting the Bible which has led to much misunderstanding. If you want the correct interpretation (as if anything needed to be interpreted) go to God. You are free to believe what you wish but, unless you follow some principles of interpretation you are heading for disaster and/or false doctrine. God chose human language and their rules to reveal Himself. He used human instruments to reach across cultures with the Gospel. The cannon is clued and God speaks to us through His Word and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Paul told Timothy to rightly divide the Word of Truth. This involves study and careful systematic study of God's Word. Your method is subjective leading to what easch individual wants the Bible to say for him. 536e6953a6bf8cbe1c4e977e578da888 Jun 17, 2013, 12:22 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119451/?page=unread#119451 Probiblos1948 wrote: In one sense you are right but, God chose to reveal Himself in human history and in human language. There are rules that apply while we study the Word of God. Hermeunitics is both a science and an art that is guided by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. There's been too much "man-science" in interpreting the Bible which has led to much misunderstanding. If you want the correct interpretation (as if anything needed to be interpreted) go to God. 8020546ce8a5b2cc3bcf6ec5048912d7 Jun 17, 2013, 10:11 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119450/?page=unread#119450 Hi evangelist-1, You have given several scriptures with LIMITED explanations. I wish you would also balance the warnings with THE EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES that are given to us. Under the third sub-heading where you listed the NEW Covenant, it would have been wonderful if you had shown the NATURE of the New Covenant. IT IS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT. NO MAN (WOMAN also, as in mankind) CAN ADD to it or TAKE AWAY from it. That alone means THAT YOUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT PART OF THE COVENANT. You are MIXING UP YOUR WORKS OF HOLY LIVING OR SANCTIFICATION with THE NEW COVENANT SANCTIFICATION. Eternal life is a gift NOT A PROCESS. It is GIVEN, I REPEAT, GIVEN to a BELIEVER based on GOD's GRACE ALONE. Even the faith that the believer acted on is a GIFT. If a believer adds to that faith his own works of faith, which he or she uses for holy living, then the believer is BOASTING. That is not in agreement with the doctrines of GRACE. Boasting is a no, no, and will always be, as far as God's GRACE is concerned. Besides, there is a scripture that says about the Lord Jesus, that He is the way, the truth and THE LIFE (ETERNAL LIFE). You are making Jesus into a process. When someone receives eternal life, he or she is NOT RECEIVING SOMETHING THAT IS A PROCESS that can FAIL. He or she is RECEIVING THE EVERLASTING JESUS. That is the true Jesus, who I preach. He is the eternal life and He WILL RAISE HIS CHOSEN CHILDREN at the appointed time, without FAILURE! Within the words of the promise of the New Covenant, God declares His NATURE! He is WONDERFULLY MERCIFUL! He is EVERLASTINGLY MERCIFUL. He is not like the preachers who receive your tithes and offerings, and knowing that you have been blessed and not cursed, still screams from the pulpits, "You are cursed with a curse! You have robbed God of tithes and offerings!" God also REVEALS His power and might by saying, "I WILL", "make, put, write, GIVE, be, AND CAUSE YOU". That means even your Holy Living WILL BE BLESSED. The NEWNESS OF LIFE that believers must experience IS NOT entirely DEPENDENT ON THEM, as you are conveying! I can go on, but I must restrain myself, lest I become overbearing to some of you. With love and peace to you. Abdool cecd452de889d0d86c67011d20742df1 Jun 16, 2013, 6:18 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bpraizeop2%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119449/?page=unread#119449 Hi Sarah. but if it helps one person to question their own salvation, that is a good thing. I'd rather say 'If it helps anyone to have increased confidence that their salvation is entirely already accomplished by Jesus Christ, and that their dependence on HIS righteousness and their commitment and increasing desire to follow HIS Way of life, is guaranteeing their continued inclusion and protection in His flock', that is a good thing. the Bible says that even the demons believe and tremble. 'Believe', in the sense that they are convinced of Christ's authority, but not accepting of it. My guess is that once human beings have the same ' view and understanding of things in the spiritual realm ', as the demons do, then they will come under the same rule as them. Meanwhile I think human beings can claim ignorance as a reason for their rejection of Christ's authority and his gift of reconciliation with God, and God may graciously accept that , at least on this side of the grave. But, after this life, when we will 'know even as also we are known', all things will be different. The question with respect of salvation we must ask ourselves is "Knowing my self to be saved by God's grace alone, what am I doing about that"? Regards Chris. 99af6c32fd12892b2cb878fbe16454fd Jun 15, 2013, 12:55 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119448/?page=unread#119448 Salvation is a simple uncomplicated thing explained in John 3:16. No need for a long dissertation on the subject. 87addc125ef03a3b7897930d715ddad1 Jun 14, 2013, 11:56 AM