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OSAS vs. CS

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OSAS vs. CS
1 Cor. 3 (KJV):

(10]According to the Grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones(;] wood, hay, stubble; (13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




I almost never get involved in OSAS vs. CS (Cond. Sec.), and in fact it has been so long since I last did so that I was even sure I would never post on one again. Just like discussing charismatic doctrine on non-charismatic or mixed forums, these types of topics are too divisive, cause many to stumble through anger and bitterness and strife, and really, in regards to OSAS vs. CS, there is little-to-no need these things be addressed, by me at least and outside of my own fellowship. Both sides have missed the true qualifications for eternal Life as are given in God’s Holy Word, the only accepted Standard. So it is more important I---and you too---be “all things to all men,” with “the hope [at least] some might be saved” (sorry that that comes across condescendingly, I couldn’t think of any other way to put it), and get back to the basics---“the sincere milk of the Word”---of what qualifies someone to inherit eternal Life (and not just how someone gets to await Judgment Day in Paradise instead of hell, but rather where they will spend eternity after that Day).



The above ref. passage from 1 Cor. 3 is often used by OSAS believers, and may even be the most often used in defense of their belief, and yet it is among those least applicable. If someone were able to consider it in its full context and from a purely objective perspective---impossible to do apart from a specific act of Grace---they would recognize that it does not at all confront the issue of eternal Life. Paul is not addressing the qualifications for eternal Life, but is speaking of those who already qualified. He is addressing those such as Apollos (v’s. 4--6) who are building upon his apostolic foundation. The passage is purely about the additional rewards, or lack thereof, that will be given to those who inherit eternal Life. These rewards, as many know, will most likely determine what position someone will be given in the theocracy of the eternal, New Jerusalem, Age.



Btw, key words in both the above Scripture and my dialogue are “apostolic” and “foundation.” It is assumed by Paul that his words are to be understood to apply only to those who have at their core, a true apostolic foundation. Already in Paul’s day the apostles were outnumbered 12/13 to 10,000 (“though you have 10,000 instructors in Christ”). The vast majority did not personally recognize the authority of the apostles and their doctrine, instead choosing to themselves the 10,000 who held to a lesser, more palatable and pedestrian and patronizing, watered-down version (by severe implication of the Word). So of course since these masses did not have an apostolic foundation---



Regardless, any doctrine regarding eternal Life is not, if it is to be true, reached by referencing this passage or that passage, but is based upon all applicable Scriptures being assembled, all traits of God and general Kingdom principles being applied, etc., then all of that compared against whatever doctrine was believed revealed by God to the church. If the “theorized” doctrine was indeed from God and not from the hearts and minds of self-justifying men, that doctrine will align perfectly with all Scriptures speaking of eternal Life, and all attributes of God, and all principles of the Kingdom, etc., and all without having to jam square pegs into round holes.



There is only one doctrine which so aligns itself, and it is neither OSAS nor CS. It is thus: eternal Life is promised by God only to those who have allowed Him, by Grace and (S)spirit only, by Grace and (S)spirit only (sic), to perfect them in His Love (not to be confused with sinfulness; it is the Love of God working through them which is perfect, for that Love itself “will cover the multitude of sins”---avail., of course, only through the Blood of Jesus). Period; there’s only one Gospel.



Whether or not a person lives long enough to be perfected in God’s Love, is of course in God’s hands, and will determine whether they will have enough time to bring forth Fruit of “gold, silver and precious stones,” and also is of course a factor in whether that Fruit will be 30-, 60- or a 100-fold. Our responsibility as those once born-again and started in Grace, is to along the Way not harden our heart against God’s process of perfecting us in His Love---which practically all in this post-modern church have fallen prey to, them already being “beguiled” (KJV; 2 Cor 11) by the same watered-down Gospel which appeared already in the first century. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge,” and the lack of apostolic foundations in church doctrine has resulted in a pandemic spiritual famine (“half” the church has gone the way of liberalism, trampling on Grace as they consider it a common-to-be -used thing [Heb. 10:26—29; “I’m not perfect, just forgiven” is their bumper sticker]; half the church has gone the way of the Galatians, being started by the Spirit but then succumbing to self-righteous works of flesh, believing and claiming such are what James 2 has called for). Truly, truly, I’m sorrowed to say.



While of course not the only ones, the following Scriptures are applicable to the only true, apostolic, unadulterated Gospel of Christ Jesus:



1 John 2:[3]And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. [4] He that saith, “I know Him,” and keepeth not His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.



Luke 10:[25]And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and [tested Jesus], saying, “Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ [26] [Jesus] said unto him, ‘What is written in the Law? how readest thou?” [27] And [the lawyer] answering said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” [28] And [Jesus] said unto him, “Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.”



1 John 4:[16]And we have known and believed the Love that God hath to us. God is Love; and he that dwelleth in Love dwelleth in God, and God in him. [17] Herein is our Love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world [IF indeed we are]. [18] There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in Love.



Rev. 22:[14]Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the Gates into the [Holy] City [the yet-to-come New Jerusalem, not the present-day Paradise]. [CONVERSELY---]



Ephes. 2:[8]For by Grace [ONLY] are ye saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the Gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.



James 2:[17]So then also Faith by itself, if it hath not works [of the Spirit; of Grace], is dead.



But of course, those wanting to remain rebellious, and therefore lawless, who agapao love their remaining heart idols more than the unadulterated Truth of God and the Light that Truth seeks to shine upon the still-darkened hearts of the once born-again Christian, will have their opinions and conjectures and humanistic insistences which will differ from what is claimed Truth above (nothing personal implied by me).



The Good News, however: God offers more Grace, and second and third chances, even if what is needed is a Grace of repentance by those finding themselves without the desire to repent: just ask Him, in Jesus’ name, and believe, nothing wavering.



“Today, if you will hear His Voice, harden not your hearts. . . .”



“Grace and Peace be multiplied onto you,” those marvelous “manifold Graces of God,” brother jim

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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to


There is only one doctrine which so aligns itself, and it is neither OSAS nor CS. It is thus: eternal Life is promised by God only to those who have allowed Him, by Grace and (S)spirit only, by Grace and (S)spirit only (sic), to perfect them in His Love (not to be confused with sinfulness; it is the Love of God working through them which is perfect, for that Love itself “will cover the multitude of sins”---avail., of course, only through the Blood of Jesus). Period; there’s only one Gospel.




you just invented your own gospel.



"eternal life is promised ONLYto those who...."



and then you eisegize verses to make your gospel.



Faith, in Jesus Christ crucified, resurrected and ascended, is the gospel.



you have taken romans 8:28-31 and made your own gospel, cause you cant handle the fact we dont have to work for it.



being conformed to his image, is not the gospel.the thief on the cross didnt do any of it.



he just BELEIVED---AND WAS SAVED by his repentence of heart.



Period.

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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
Because of the level of or lack of maturity in this forum this topic because of prior history shows a distinct lack of wisdom in being used.

The last time this topic was used as a thread it came close to being an issue that divided the site. Unless you want to be an instigator of serious conflict drop this now. There is no constructive reason for this because with long history on this subject the only thing that has reached a unity is an agreement to disagree,and friction on a long term basis among members.

If I sound harsh I really in all truthfulness am because those who want discussion on this either did not witness the problems of the past or really don't care as long as their opinion is voiced
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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
Hi Brother Jim,



It seems to me that the expression, 'conditional security' is an oxymoron. If salvation, or redemption, or justification, or eternal life, is conditional than you don't have security.



1 Cor. 3 and all of 1 Cor. is addressed to Christians. Some mature, some very immature. This passage is about rewards or lack thereof, but it also provides insight into the debate about eternal versus temporary salvation. You say, "... it does not at all confront the issue of eternal Life." Paul is indeed discussing rewards. He is also reassuring the readers that although works may be burned, that person will not.



Of course, I almost forgot, you claim to have been given " a specific act of Grace" which allows you to consider this passage from a purely objective point of view. Let me say that claiming for yourself some special grace or status will never settle any debate, nor should it.



Other than your mentioning "a true apostolic foundation", what ever that would mean today, the rest of your post is just more of the same old tired debate. There is only one teaching that agrees with all of scripture, and of course that is the view you hold.



You end on a low point by imply those who might not agree with you are hardening or will harden their hearts when reading your post.



Peter
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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
mseventh----you protect the site.



I'll continue to protect doctrine.



fair?



yes, fair.



all the apostles suffered for guarding truth.



they died for it.



so will I.



being banned by heretics, is a blessing.
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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
the name of this forum is "Soteriology".



this is the MOST common discussion on that subject.



if this subject isnt wanted, GET RID OF THE SECTION THAT HAS ITS LABEL.



In the name of unity---churches are burned to the ground, right where they belong when unity is their gospel.



borderline heretical ecunemicism.



Jesus Christ is Lord.



he is comin with a spankin stick.
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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
I think the problem with the conditional security is that they value imperative commands or exhortations OVER indicative statements and promises, surely a promise is more certain in its meaning that a command, for what can one learn about a doctrine from a command? Oh yes, if one believes that one can lose their salvation their error lies in not reading Romans 8.....and especially Romans 9. If people would read these chapters they would realize that those that are saved WILL persevere in holiness till the end and be saved and that nothing will be able to seperate them from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Ben.
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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.





Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........





The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).





Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.





As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
The interdenominational pastor I'm making an allusion to alienated himself on another Christian site. I only reason I read his posts was because he was interdenominational. The posters scolded him about his smug posts. He self-righteously told the posters that they weren't Christians. I hope that I'm wrong, but I believe that this Brother Jim is him.
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Re: OSAS vs. CS In reply to
 catholiccrusader (Terry O'Brien):



As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."



As a Catholic, (but not, like your good self, a Roman Catholic) Christian, I agree wholeheartedly with your above statement.



However an assurance of salvation is just what it says it is, an assurance that God will faithfully perform in us all that is necessary for our eventual salvation i.e we are being saved, by God's grace, through faith (i.e. because we believe it to be true). To believe less after experiencing God's deliverance is basically lack of faith and a false humility.



When we fall it is God's Grace alone which enables us to rise again, not our own efforts to achieve any acceptable level of righteousness. Our righteousness is all in Christ, not in our own efforts.



There can be no works of supererogation where salvation is concerned.



Regards Chris.