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Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation

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Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation
In our modern school system, almost everyone has been taught that the earth, life, animals, and man have all been developing from over billions of years of natural evolution. Some attempts have been made to give this a religious turn or, as has been said, to “baptize” the process by calling it “theistic evolution” or “progressive creation,” saying that God may have used evolution as His process of creation.

As a Bible Believing Christian and a follower of Jesus Christ, I ask two questions: (1) What does the Bible teach and (2) What did the Lord teach and believe? Consider the following:

1. The Bible nowhere allows for long ages.
Search the Bible from beginning to end and you will find no evidence of evolution or long ages. Jesus believed every “jot and tittle” of the Bible was divinely inspired (Matthew 5:18). He warned us severely against adding any other words to it (Revelation 22:18). Why would the doctrine of creation be left open to human speculation.

2. The Bible states how and when creation took place.
The Hebrew word yom means literal 24-hour days. This is especially true when numbered as the "first" or "second" day etc. We know, therefore that God created the Universe and all that is in it in six literal days and rested on the seventh.

3. The Lord Jesus recognized that men and women existed right from the beginning.
He taught that men and women were made essentially at the same time as the universe when He said that “from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female’” (Mark 10:6).

I have more that could be said but, these points will do for now. Some of you will disagree. But, it is a dangerous and damning step to disagree with what God has written.

Blessings,
ALF
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
AlienLifeForm62: Hi

1. The Bible nowhere allows for long ages.
Search the Bible from beginning to end and you will find no evidence of evolution or long ages. Jesus believed every “jot and tittle” of the Bible was divinely inspired (Matthew 5:18). He warned us severely against adding any other words to it (Revelation 22:18). Why would the doctrine of creation be left open to human speculation.


And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matt. 12:32

and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.Matt 13:39-40.

"Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age. Matt 24:3.

Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. Matt. 28:20.

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. Gal 1:3-5.

It would appear from the above verses that the present ‘age’ can be thought of as the time that mankind has autonomously sought to govern the earth outside of God’s will. I.E. from the expulsion from the Paradise Garden to the Return of Christ in Glory to judge the quick and the dead in the general resurrection. (In fact the ‘age’ of human history).

It is also very clear from scripture though that there have been many ‘ages’ before the age of human history and there will be at least another ‘age’ AFTER human earthly history.

Thy name, O Lord, endures for ever: thy renown, O Lord, throughout all ages. Ps 135:13

Ages ago I was set up: at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men. Prov. 8:23-.

Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new”? It has been already, in the ages before us. [i.e before the author or even before the human race]. There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of later things yet to happen among those who come after. Eccl. 1:10-11.

But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor. 2:7-8.

So in fact there is quite a lot in The Bible to support the notion that there were many AGES before this present age of human history. One might expect a proper interpretation of the truth of scripture to be supported by the truths of scientific research. TRUTH is TRUTH wherever it comes from.

the Bible was divinely inspired (Matthew 5:18). He warned us severely against adding any other words to it (Revelation 22:18).

The usual bending and twisting of scripture to suit the purposes of fundamentalist creationism. The warning in Rev. 22:18. refers specifically to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Not to the whole Bible. i.e:

I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book:if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The usual creationists ignorance of scripture and its origins. The 'book' called the Bible did not exist when John wrote this. John specifically referred to ' the plagues ' described in The Book of Revelation that had just been written to the seven churches. To imply that this statement should apply to the knowledge gained through scientific discovery and historical experience is a blatant misuse of scripture and a deliberate suppression of The Truth.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. Rom. 1:18-20.

So scripture clearly states that scientific inquiry is a legitimate way to perceive revelation of the invisible nature of God. If scientific discovery appears to contradict traditional interpretations of scripture, then the 'traditional interpretations' need to be re-examined to see if they were perhaps based upon 'false' assumptions. The actual meaning of the scriptures may be more obvious in the light of new knowledge. Interpretations can still be wrong, even if they have traditionally been held to be literally true by generations lacking the scientific knowledge to properly evaluate their truthfulness. Literal meaning is not the only 'truthful' way of understanding scripture. It is just the most obvious place to start, that is all. Jesus Christ promised that The Holy Spirit would guide us into ALL truth. Jn. 16:13. We don't know it all yet.


2. The Bible states how and when creation took place.
The Hebrew word yom means literal 24-hour days. This is especially true when numbered as the "first" or "second" day etc. We know, therefore that God created the Universe and all that is in it in six literal days and rested on the seventh.


Now I think even the most ardent creationist must agree that there was no sin in the ages before Adam and Eve were created. So ‘the rulers of THIS age’ must be a reference to the ‘age of fallen mankind’ in which we all are now living.

So when ‘AGES’ are spoken of in scripture as preceding ‘ this present age ’, it must mean that the ‘days’ before mankind were not normal 24 hour days due to the earth’s rotation. But rather were a succession of ‘AGES’, which as Ecclesiastes puts it, ‘ there is no [human] remembrance of ’.

Even creationists agree, that it has been at least thousands of years since the time of creation, yet the Bible declares that God rested on the seventh day after His six days of creation (Gen. 2:2-3). According to the book of Hebrews, God is still in His Sabbath rest from creation (4:3-5); hence, the seventh day has been at least six thousand years long so far, even on the shortest of all the chronologies of humankind.

"Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses? And with whom was he provoked forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
"As I swore in my wrath, " They shall never enter my rest, ‘" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way," And God rested on the seventh day from all his works. " And again in this place he said," They shall never enter my rest. " Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he sets a certain day," Today, "saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, " Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. " For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labours as God did from his. Heb. 3:15-, 4:10.


It is therefore still the 7th ‘day’ of creation upon which God is ‘resting’. The duration of which, even by the calculations of young earth creationists must be at least 6000 years, not just a single ‘ day’s rest ’.

3. The Lord Jesus recognized that men and women existed right from the beginning.
He taught that men and women were made essentially at the same time as the universe when He said that “from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female’” (Mark 10:6).

In Mark 10:6, Jesus quotes Genesis 1:27: “From the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’” Many young-earth creationists have latched onto this verse, interpreting it in a novel way that provides evidence for their position of a 6,000 to 10,000 year old earth.

However, careful study of this passage reveals the traditional understanding of Jesus’ words is correct and the passage does not support a recent or young earth creation.

Adam and Eve were the last creatures created by God–they came at the end of the creation process, however long it might have taken. There is a parallel passage in Matthew 19:4: “Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning ‘made them male and female’?” So what does Jesus mean in Mark 10:6? By comparing Mark with Matthew, the first thing to note is “from the beginning of creation” is equivalent to the simple phrase “from the beginning.” What “beginning” is Jesus speaking of? The immediate context indicates he was speaking of the beginning of human history, when marriage was first instituted, not at the beginning of the creation process itself.

If Jesus had been referring to the creation sequence itself it would not make sense, since Adam and Eve came at the END of the creation sequence, not at THE BEGINNING of it.

The clear contextual comparison that Jesus is making is not a case for creationism at all. It is about DIVORCE under the law of Moses, and the natural, primal state of human marriage. I.E. marriage existed BEFORE the law of Moses existed. Not as God’s first act of CREATION, which clearly and obviously, according to the scriptures themselves, it was not.

This kind of sloppy use of the scriptures, to prop up untenable creationist young earth dogma, is why I am convinced that Scripture itself carries no warrant for it whatever. It is entirely the works of human imagination based upon misunderstanding and ignorance of Holy Scripture allied with ignorance and hostility to science, logical reasoning and verifiable, observable truth.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 2, 2016, 3:38 PM
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
GOOD POST AND I SUPPORT EVERYTHING YOU HAVE WRITTEN, ONE AREA OF CONFLICT THOUGH CURRENT THEOLOGISTS RIDE THE SCRIPTURE DAY WITH THE LORD IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND CONVERSELY A 1000 YEARS IS AS A DAY BUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THAT IS IN THE DEFINITION OF JEHOVAH AND IT'S ROOT VERB FROM THE ENGLISH IT IS "TO BE" (FROM THE HEBREW JA). THE UNIQUE THING ABOUT THIS VERB IS THAT MEANS THAT GOD IS THE SAME ,YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER LITERALLY.
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Chris, This is my final time responding to any of your posts and it consists of just two words, "No Comment."

Alf
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
To anyone interested:

2. The Bible states how and when creation took place.
The Hebrew word yom means literal 24-hour days.


Spoken as a died in the wool ‘literalist’ incapable of discerning any poetic use of the word. On the assumption presumably that the passage is not Hebrew poetry but a scientific dissertation overruling all other observations.

And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

Take for instance the third ‘day’, or ‘age’ of creation.

We have the separation of landmass and seas. There is essentially no conflict between science and scripture on this point, providing there is no artificial imposition of a strict limitation of these events to a single 24 hour day for the completion of the event.

"Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so.

Again no conflict with scientific understanding of the event unless a 24 hour time limit is artificially placed upon it. Of course the scientific understanding is that the geological record has preserved evidence that the development of vegetation on land was a gradual rise to complexity from very fundamental beginnings. But the process certainly moved relentlessly over time toward ‘seed bearing plants’ and ‘fruit bearing trees’, with many developments along the way.

Once the process towards God's objective was initiated, i.e. ("Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth.”), it then continued as God intended by the natural process of evolution to seed and fruit bearing, and it continues still, mostly but not only, by that method.

The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.

The author, for some reason, has repeated the fact that the vegetation naturally ‘fruited’ and ‘seeded’ itself, according to an established rule, ‘according to its kind’.

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Luke 6:43.

This is the way this principle was understood in Biblical times. Based upon observation, with no knowledge of evolutionary theory, it is obvious that Seeds and fruit are the origin of plants. However we know from the geological record that vegetation has evolved from simple to complex forms over 'ages', a long period of time.

However, creationists would have us believe that the vegetation that God established on dry land, had grown, matured, fruited, seeded, re-planted its seed and fruit, and reproduced, ALL in the time-span of a single 24 hour ‘day’.

God can do ANYTHING, they say, “So why not do this all in a single day”? Well if that is what they feel they MUST believe, that is their own affair. It does not make it TRUE though and they have no evidence for it.

I ask the question in return, “Why should God need to do it in a single 24 hour day when He has an entire ETERNITY to work within”. What was the all fired hurry to get plants to artificially reach maturity and go to seed, then grow from seed again, all in the space of a single 24 hour day? And why then did God then leave evidence in the fossil record to prove that plant life has 'developed and evolved' on earth over millions of years? (Ages of which mankind has no memory). Eccl. 1:11.

Why would God behave like a magician, magicking plants into existence, complete with fruit and seeds, in 24 earth hours, when He is perfectly able to cause it all to happen ‘naturally’ over a protracted period of time. Time is NOTHING to God. He has PLENTY of it. God is ETERNAL.

When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men. Prov. 9:24-.

It seems clear that ‘Wisdom’, who is speaking in the above text, has overseen various ‘ages’ of creation, of which the ‘age of mankind’ is only the most recent age of many.

Ages ago I was set up: at the first, before the beginning of the earth. Each of the stages that 'Wisdom' describes seems to be 'An Age'. That is why Wisdom says, 'Ages Ago, she was set up'. Not 'a few 24 hour days before the present age', which only began with the expulsion of Adam and Eve from paradise.

God is the God of ALL ages. Not only the age of ‘human kind’. Thy name, O Lord, endures for ever: thy renown, O Lord, throughout all ages. Ps 135:13

A ‘day’ is often referred to in scripture denoting a period of time, perhaps even a generation or more in length.

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Heb. 3:8-9. Ps. 95:8.

In the above case the daywas 40 whole years of complaining.

let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. Heb 10:24-.

Here the word ‘Day’ is used of the new ‘age’ or eon, that is about to dawn at the return of Christ. This ‘Day’ will last for the whole of ETERNITY, not just 24 hours.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 3, 2016, 6:17 AM
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
I have requested that my account here be deleted. Should anyone wish to contact me, my primary email is ascombs884@outlook.com

Take care and goodbye all.
Allen
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

If we were to take Gen. 1:9-13 literally, as the young earth creationists insist, then the inference must be that ALL plants from the very outset reproduced either by seed or by fruit by divine decree. However it is a fact that fruiting and seeding are by no means the only method of reproduction for plants. It is not however the Bible which is wrong about this issue. It is the young earth creationist’s method of interpreting the Bible that is in error.

There are more than 700 types of non-flowering plants present on earth, among them some famous non flowering plants are ferns and horsetails. Other examples of non flowering plants are Moses. Liverworts, Cut-leaved Grape Fern, Royal Fern, Cinnamon Fern, Curly-grass Fern, Bead Fern, Lichens, Conifers, Cycads, Algae, Rosidae, Magnoliidae, Gingko, Hornworts, Whisk ferns, Club mosses, etc.


There are three types of non flowering plants. These classifications was based on:

1. The presence of roots.
2. The absence of roots.
3. Based on their seeds - spore bearing and naked seeds.

General Characteristics of Mosses:
They belong to the kingdom of Phylum bryophyta.
They are the simplest plants with the absence of true roots and vascular tissues.
They have simple stems, leaves and they do not produce flowers, fruits and seeds.
They reproduce through spores.
They are small green colored plants, which prepare their own food.
They live in damp shady places.

General Characteristics of Ferns:
They belong to the kingdom of Phylum pteridophytae.
They are the simplest plants with the presence of roots, feathery leaves and underground stems.
They have vascular tissues, which helps in the transportation of water, minerals and sugars throughout the plant.
They have spore producing organs, which is present at the bottom of the leaves.
They live in damp shady places.
There are approximately 12,000 varieties of ferns around the globe.
They are large green colored plants, which prepare their own food.
They reproduce through spores.

Gymnosperms e.g.: hemlock, pine and redwood trees:
They are tall evergreen trees with the presence of roots, woody stems and needle shaped leaves.
They have vascular tissues, which helps in the transportation of water, minerals and sugars throughout the plant.
They contain naked seeds in female cones.
They reproduce seeds from cones in non-flowering plants.
They are cone-bearing plants, which resemble palm trees.
These trees grow up to 20 feet tall and are found in a Mediterranean climate.

Characteristics of Non Flowering Plants:
These plants do not produce flowers, fruits and seeds.
Non flowering plants vary in their shape, size and colour.
They are the first and oldest (about 450 million years ago) plant present on earth.
They are mainly characterized by spore production, absence of flowers and true roots.
These plants are simpler compared to those flowering plants.
They have higher level of adaptability to the environment.
Reproduction in non flowering plants is asexually by producing spores.

Gymnosperms were the first nonflowering plants to produce seeds. Gymnosperms started to produce flowers and fruits after 130 million years ago.


Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 4, 2016, 7:54 AM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Good Morning Chris,

It appears we don't have to start a new thread here after all. That's good but, I would like to take our time and possibly combine several other points along with the subject natter here. I have noticed several points we can agree on but, as usual, several disagreements as well. I'll get to those as we go down the road. For now, I want to post one statement for you. It applies here because it gives a great summary of my view of the Bible for everyone to think about, It is as follows:

"The Bible is history, the Bible is history, and where there is poetry it rehearses history in a poetic sense, such as in the Psalms. The Bible is not theory, it is not myth, as such; it is history, it is fact, it is reality, it is truth. And presents the only accurate account of creation that exists. It is the written record from the only eyewitness to the event of creation account, the only one who was there, the Creator or God,. That’s very important to understand. The Bible bases all its truth on history, not on myth and not on fantasy, but on history. When it comes to origins and considering how the universe came into existence, this is all we have, this is all we need.. That record is as follows:

IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
II. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 1:1–2:3).

God bless,
ALF
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
AlienLifeForm62: Hi

"The Bible is history, the Bible is history, and where there is poetry it rehearses history in a poetic sense, such as in the Psalms. The Bible is not theory, it is not myth, as such; it is history, it is fact, it is reality, it is truth. And presents the only accurate account of creation that exists. It is the written record from the only eyewitness to the event of creation account, the only one who was there, the Creator or God,. That’s very important to understand. The Bible bases all its truth on history, not on myth and not on fantasy, but on history. When it comes to origins and considering how the universe came into existence, this is all we have, this is all we need..

If what you say is proven fact then what is there to debate?

When it comes to origins and considering how the universe came into existence, this is all we have, this is all we need..

That may be all you think you need, because you choose to ignore all other evidence apart from what you 'believe' to be the truth, ( i.e. your literal interpretation of the book of Genesis as relating an eyewitness account of actual historical events that occurred at a particular time and place).
What is not true however is that it is all we have.

God reveals truth about his invisible nature through detailed study of his creation and we have scriptural warrant for believing the rocks don't lie. The evidence exists. Like scripture it just needs interpreting. The geological record should not be ignored, dismissed or explained away using untenable, over-imaginative theories aimed simply at reconciling a strictly 'historical' interpretation of Genesis chapters 1-5. The Bible is not the only possible source of knowledge. It is not the only explanation for what can be plainly seen by those who search out the truth of the matter, rather than accept a strictly historical interpretation of a text which has almost certainly 'mythic meaning', (Particularly Chapters 2 - 5), never intended to be understood as scientific fact.

What is really needed though are your reasons WHY you believe in a recent creation. I am perfectly willing to accept that you actually believe in such. But WHY? What are your reasons for believing so?

Regards Chris.

In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 8, 2016, 8:44 AM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Chris,
You ask some questions that, to me, are impossible to answer...
I believe that YOU think they can and should be answered, because that is who you are... but if you ask me (or Allen), it is almost an impossible statement. (Allen may disagree with me... this is simply MY opinion.)

You ask: What is really needed though are your reasons WHY you believe in a recent creation. I am perfectly willing to accept that you actually believe in such. But WHY? What are your reasons for believing so?

I am not speaking in defense of Allen, I am speaking for me... If you were to want a reason from me, I doubt I could give it to you. It is enough for me that the Bible says it and THIS IS THE WAY THAT I INTERPRET IT!!!! The Bible says it and I believe it to be so in the manner in which I perceive it.

Just sayin'...




Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [praizeop2] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
praizeop2: Hi

If you were to want a reason from me, I doubt I could give it to you.

I do see your point, and I think probably Alan may be in a similar frame of mind to you about it.

That does leave me with the question though, why name the thread "Reasons I believe in a Recent Creation" if you can't actually think of any 'reasons' why you do, apart from 'just because you do'.

Can you see my point. That is not a reason for 'believing', it is just 'a belief'.

Now if I were to ask what are your reasons for believing in the resurrection of the dead, you might say "because of the testimony of witnesses in scripture", or perhaps "because of the sudden growth of the church, who obviously were convinced that something very unusual had taken place, or perhaps, "the fact that a body has never been produced, in spite of the obvious desire on the behalf of the Romans and the Jewish authorities to have done so, in order to stop the rumors which were quickly spreading". Or perhaps even, 'that I have had an encounter with the spirit of the risen Christ', like St Paul and other Apostles claimed to have experienced. I knew a man who claimed to have met Christ while he was in jail in a prison cell for murder. He claimed that he was visited by two men in smart suits who introduced themselves to him as Jesus and St Peter. He turned over his life from that day onward to witnessing as a Pentecostal Christian. After his eventual release after serving his sentence, he ran a green grocers shop in our neighborhood and was a powerful witness many years. His name was Jack Lemon. However skeptical others may have been about the matter, his personal conviction to what he had experienced was unshakable.

There seems however to be no factual basis upon which to base a 'young earth belief'. The Bible gives no dates or chronology for the Genesis events. There is no logical reason for believing that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, and a wealth of evidence that it is very substantially older than 10,000 years. Many Millions, even some billions of years in fact. Such estimates in no way contradict scripture, God is eternal, ageless, and the universe God created is very nearly so itself, so the insistence upon a 'young universe less than 10,000 years old' is not based upon reason. It is based upon 'faith' in a theory, and ignoring any other extra-biblical 'evidence'.

Deliberately ignoring evidence which might call into question a belief that has no reason to support it, is described correctly in the English language as 'ignorance'.

In nearly 2000 years of Christian witness it has not been possible to prove the resurrection of Jesus Christ did not take place. Many have tried and failed. However in the last 200 years there has been a steadily growing mass of evidence that the universe is approximately 14 Billion years old at least and the earth about 4 Billion years old. So on what 'evidence' or for what reason, is a supposition that it is only 6000 years old actually based?

Regards Chris.

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rdrcofe: Jul 9, 2016, 3:26 PM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Greetings Chris,

I'm not going to get into the various plants, scientific names and classifications of plants etc. Instead, I have a simple statement you made that I want to correct. You said, If we were to take Gen. 1:9-13 literally, as the young earth creationists insist, then the inference must be that ALL plants from the very outset reproduced either by seed or by fruit by divine decree. However it is a fact that fruiting and seeding are by no means the only method of reproduction for plants. It is not however the Bible which is wrong about this issue. It is the young earth creationist’s method of interpreting the Bible that is in error.

First, you still are mistaken about what a "literal" interpretation of the Bible involves. I use the 'Historical, Grammatical Method.' This involves knowing the historical context of any passage studied, the grammar (including the meaning of words) and lots of detailed study and effort. It also involves a knowledge of the background of thee authors of Scripture plus acknowledging that they wrote under the inspiration (guidance and supervision) of the Holy Spirit. He used their personalities and writing styles but assured that no errors were made in the written manuscripts.

Second, consider the word 'car. How many makes and styles are there on the road today. They use different fuels, have different seating and storage arrangements, different appearances but all are still automobiles and have ne thing in common. They were designed by an intelligent being.

The same is true if you study the words of Scripture in their original meaning. For example:

Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries defines the word grass as "a sprout; by analogy grass: - (tender) grass, green, (tender) herb."

Brown, Driver and Briggs Hebrew Definitions says it means, "grass, new grass, green herb, vegetation, young."

Taking the same two sources, the word 'fruit' means "bough, ([first-]) fruit, reward." (Strong's) or "fruit, produce (of the ground)." (BDB)

God created plants, animals and man with the appearance of age and as full grown budding creations. According to Genesis 1 and 2, He did so in six days and rested on the seventh day, "...from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:3) His work of creation is finished but He still works to hold things together. "...by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17).

I'll leave it there for now sure that we will be coming back down this trail in the future.

Blessings,
ALF
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Re: [AlienLifeForm62] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
AlienLifeForm62: Hi.

Thanks for the reply. You say:

God created plants, animals and man with the appearance of age and as full grown budding creations. According to Genesis 1 and 2, He did so in six days and rested on the seventh day, "...from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:3) His work of creation is finished but He still works to hold things together. "...by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17).

Why would God create plants animals and man ‘with the appearance of age’, ‘as full grown budding creations’. What is the scriptural warrant for such an assertion, is there chapter and verse to support this novel idea apart from the assumption that proceeds from a literal interpretation of the first 5 chapters of Genesis? If there is no other scriptural statement to 'back the proposition up', then it is just a question of interpretation.

He did so in six days and rested on the seventh day, "...from all his work which God created and made.”.

At face value this text might appear to be a factual, historical, account of God’s ‘method’ of bringing the material creation into being if treated as a straightforward and literal statement of scientific fact.

However it need not be and probably is not a ‘scientific fact’. It is more likely a ‘poetic statement’. It may be just establishing the fact that the created order owes its existence to God and the six ‘days’ and the ‘seventh’ are ‘figurative’, not implying exact 24 hour periods of time, but long ages, of which the Bible says there were many before ‘the current aeon of mankind’.

The Bible contains examples where ‘day’ is used figuratively, not meaning a 24 hour period of time, but anything from 40 years to Eternity.

His work of creation is finished but He still works to hold things together. "...by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:17).

If, as you do, one believes the creation ‘days’ to mean literally 24 hour periods of time, then Heb. Chapter 4 becomes impossible to understand. You seem to be saying that God only rested for 24 hours and is now no longer ‘resting’. The writer of Hebrews however is making a direct correlation between God’s ‘rest’, which he implies is a ‘continuing rest from his work of creation’, and our ‘rest’ as faithful believers in the atonement of Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead, obtained by faith and not by works.

If, as you suggest, God is no longer ‘at rest’, because the 24 hour day upon which he ‘rested’ was over and done with 6000 years or so ago, then the writer of Hebrews cannot be ‘inspired’ and is clearly wrong, by your reasoning, in saying that God is still ‘resting’ and we can ‘enter into that rest’ by believing in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, our great High Priest, the Lamb of God.

"As I swore in my wrath, " They shall never enter my rest, ‘" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way," And God rested on the seventh day from all his works. " And again in this place he said," They shall never enter my rest. " Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he sets a certain day," Today, "saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, " Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. " For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labours as God did from his. Heb. chapter 4.

In effect what the author is saying is this: God's true 'rest' is for people of 'faith'. But what does God mean by 'my rest' ? It must be his resting after creation described in Gen. 2:2, (quoted in Heb. v.4). The 'rest' that may be forfeited is a share in God's unending sabbath rest. (In LXX the verb 'rest' in Gen. 2:2 is katapauo, cognate with the noun katapausis in P. 95:11; in MT two different Hebrew words are used.). The author proceeds, according to Ps. 95 the Israelites in the wilderness were not the only ones who might fail to enter the promised rest, for centuries later, 'in David' (i.e. in the Psalter), certain other people are warned to listen to God's voice 'today', lest they too harden their hearts and miss his promised rest. Therefore the 'rest' which the disobedient Israelites missed in Moses' day was not merely the land of Canaan, for the people addressed in Ps. 95 were already settled there.

'Joshua' and 'Jesus' are two forms of the same name; it is significant in the estimation of the author of Hebrews that the leader into the earthly Canaan bore the same name as the pioneer of our salvation, but the 'rest' into which Jesus brings his people is better than anything that Joshua's followers attained. There is no true 'rest' on earth; the real Sabbath 'rest' is eternal, and into this rest (identical with the heavenly country of Heb. 11:10, 16), God's faithful people will enter when their labor is done, as God himself has 'rested' since his work of creation was finished.

Can you see now that insistence upon actual 24 hour creation ‘days’, and particularly belief in a 7th 24 hour 'day' of rest actually conflicts with and contradicts New Testament scripture?

..by him all things consist.

He is the image of the invisible God, the first- born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities- all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col. 1:15-17. RSV.

There is no mention in the above reference of God ‘still working’ to hold the creation together. God’s ‘work’ consisted of putting in place the conditions by which a universe would operate and sustain itself. God has ‘given them a law which shall not be broken’. As Scotty in Star Trek would say, “You canna change the laws of physics.”

Praise him, ye heavens of heavens,
and ye waters that be above the heavens.
Let them praise the name of the Lord:
for he commanded, and they were created.
He hath also stablished them for ever and ever:
he hath made a decree which shall not pass
.
Ps 148:4-6.

Regards Chris.

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rdrcofe: Jul 10, 2016, 2:36 PM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Chris,
I am in complete awe of your statement here because it is SO ideologically different from what Allen has said and it is SO ideologically from what I believe...

I have to ask myself... how is it possible for you to believe what you are saying here? It is in complete opposite from what Allen has said and in complete opposite from what I believe, which also is in complete opposite from what Allen believes.

I think it must come from what PraizeOP calls Cognitive Dissonance, which in my interpretation comes from the things that have gone into making us (me) the way that I am today. My childhood and early adult life were fraught with beliefs for which I continue to feel I must pay penance, whether or not others think I need to make payment or even if those to whom I might owe have already forgiven me. In other words, I continue to pay today for something I did yesterday (or yesteryear), whether or not any payment is required.

So I look at you and Allen and even Jeanne (though she hasn't posted here) and I see you could take us and put all four of us on different quadrants of the circle. Each of us has a completely different outlook on any particular phrase that might be stated, born from what has gone on in our earlier life. I think that the problem that arises with you and Allen that you don't get with Jeanne and me is that you two try to get others to believe what you say. You two are not satisfied to just say what you feel. You want people to believe. Where as Jeanne and I believe what we believe and don't care if you other two believe it or not. We have formed our opinions and are perfectly happy with what we have formed; you and Allen are not happy to just be satisfied with what you believe... you want everyone to agree with you. I'm thinking, now that this may be a male/female issue.

Let me know if I have gone off subject here. I thought I was replying to Chris...
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [praizeop2] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Hello all.

Well…

I tend to fall into Chris's views on Evolutionary Theory, which many Christians have no trouble assigning to a Creator Deity.

If I thought anything I might add of my reasonings would be of interest to the rest, I could crank out some posts, but you all know very well where I stand; there was no Creator Deity and no need for such to advance Life, The Universe and Everything.

This is an interesting Theology discussion, however, and attempting to sway each other is part of the intellectual challenge and fun.

It might be of some benefit, Chris, if we keep in mind that there are many Christians (and perhaps other believers in humanity's diverse faiths) who truly and actually believe that God still creates every single thing that comes into being on a daily basis. Each snowflake is made by God. Every natural action of the planet and of the stars and moon and sun, every rainbow and hurricane and blizzard and each and every cell that comes into being is literally brought into existence by the immediate action of God.

A very busy Creator Deity with its influence upon every action and each entity whether living or non-living is what I have been told more than once in my life is the God of Christianity. Such a Creator who is still busy with creation would quite reasonably be the Creator who did it all in a week. This is not the Creator who set events in motion with a creation that was his Opus Magnus; this is a Creator who is still responsible for all of creation for all eternity.

It is, Sarah, not a female/male issue; it is a difference in scientific viewpoint, which influences theological viewpoint. When the Bible is accepted as the only history and truth that is needed to explain Life, the Universe and Everything and when there is no discussion that can sway a person from that concept, the discussion is futile until the one who denies all but his faith in Scripture and prayer has a change of mind, of life, of faith. Or…the other has a similar experience, which is proving to be less and less a possible outcome in humanity's evolution as Homo Sapiens.

I surely would like everyone to agree with me. Smile But, truthfully, I would much rather everyone accept Evolution as the fact that it is and Natural Selection as the process that has produced all of life's variety. I place the fault directly upon our churches and our educational system. And…perhaps that is the true difference here between us.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [praizeop2] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Sarah: Hi

I am in complete awe of your statement here because it is SO ideologically different from what Allen has said and it is SO ideologically from what I believe...

I have to ask myself... how is it possible for you to believe what you are saying here? It is in complete opposite from what Allen has said and in complete opposite from what I believe, which also is in complete opposite from what Allen believes.

All what you say is very true, but the question that comes to mind for me about 'points of view' is this:

Though a point of view may appear to be in accord with a literal interpretation of scripture, does scripture itself offer other ways of interpreting that 'point of view' than in merely strictly 'literally historical' catagories? I think it does, not least because I believe all scripture is 'inspired' which means that the New Testament book of Hebrews chapter 4 informs us on how Genesis 2:2 should be correctly understood.

I think I have demonstrated that Hebrews chapter 4 cannot be properly understood unless it can be accepted by the reader that the 7th 'day' upon which God has 'rested' from his creative acts, is actually an ongoing situation. Meaning in effect that the 'Sabbath' that God is now 'keeping' has lasted currently at least 6000 years, (even if you are a young earth creationist). And since we do not know, (because the scriptures do not tell us), exactly how long ago the human race came into existence as God's last creative act, God's 'rest' might actually be considerably longer than 6000 years. Like perhaps 140,000 or a million years or more. We cannot actually know, God has his secrets, and the time duration of his Sabbath rest appears to be one of them. All we know for certain from scripture is that it has been more by a long way than 24 earth hours.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 10, 2016, 4:04 PM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
If Paul said that to rest from our labors spiritually we have to enter into Christ---then Christ is our sabbath
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Re: [jeanne53] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Jeanne: Hi.

It might be of some benefit, Chris, if we keep in mind that there are many Christians (and perhaps other believers in humanity's diverse faiths) who truly and actually believe that God still creates every single thing that comes into being on a daily basis. Each snowflake is made by God. Every natural action of the planet and of the stars and moon and sun, every rainbow and hurricane and blizzard and each and every cell that comes into being is literally brought into existence by the immediate action of God.

There are still some tribes no doubt that think they need to perform ritual to get their God's to allow the sun to come back at dawn. They are afraid to stop in case they are plunged into perpetual darkness. Some South American ancient civilizations believed that human sacrifice would ensure adequate rainfall. The drier it got, the more victims were required.

Herein lies the danger of believing in what is often termed the 'God of the gaps'. In other words anything that is inexplicable by logic and investigation must therefore be caused by or attributed to a supernatural entity.

I am with you on this issue. Anything that has a natural explanation should be regarded as a natural event. God is obviously not constantly 'tinkering' with the universe. He has established 'laws' which 'govern' the way reality operates. This works with such seamless imperceptibility that we cannot perceive ' God ' in action except in hindsight. Ex. 33:20-23. (Some cannot even see him in hindsight). That is not however to say that God is 'unaware' of everything that goes on. Since scripture says 'In God we live and move and have our being', God is, (according to scripture), omnipresent and all pervading, timeless, transcendent, immanent and all knowing.

Most people have much too limited a view on what God is like. Limited views are products of limited understanding.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
If you can't accept the word as divinely inspired why do you waste time with it. The Bible can't be divinely inspired and have a mythical interpretation in any point. if that is what you believe you could take what you like and throw out the rest. We all ready one of those Bibles in the west called a quick study.
There is even a transgender study book coming out can' call it a Bible because it has no honor init
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Re: [m7thprophet] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
m7thprophet: Hi

If you can't accept the word as divinely inspired why do you waste time with it. The Bible can't be divinely inspired and have a mythical interpretation in any point. if that is what you believe you could take what you like and throw out the rest.

So which text do you think is inspired? Genesis Chapter 2, (interpreted as literal history, a 24 hour 'rest' by God after completing his creative acts). Or Hebrews Chapter 4 which speaks of God's continued 'rest' that we can still 'enter into', 'Today'. Or both equally so, but one is obviously 'wrong'. Either God's 'rest' was for a 24 hour day, or it still continues to 'Today' and beyond.

Which do you think should be 'thrown out'? The Hebrews passage or the notion that Genesis 2:2 refers to a 24 hour day. You can't have both!

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 10, 2016, 4:22 PM
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Re: [m7thprophet] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Hello Jim.

Are you saying that there are not sects of Christianity that already pick and choose what to believe and how to behave? Not the quick study ones, either, but died-in-the-wool Bible literalist sects.

What Bible do the Jehovah's Witnesses use? How about the Westboro Baptist Church? Branch Davidians? Catholics? Southern Baptists? Do they use a different Bible than yours?

How do the Christians who accept Evolutionary Theory and other science-based non-biblical-adhering concepts; what Bible do they use?

Are Christians stoning their disobedient sons outside of town? Are they allowing women to cut their hair? Are they wearing clothing of more than one fiber?

Picking and choosing is what has driven Christianity through the centuries, isn't it? I, for one, am thankful for this fact, else we would be dealing with extremist Christians just as we are dealing with extremist Islamists.

The Inquisition was driven by picking and choosing. Did the world need that? The brutal history of how Europeans dealt with the indigenous peoples of the "New World" was driven by picking and choosing and we are still dealing with the effects of that nastiness and betrayal.

"Divine Inspiration" may have produced much of what many Christians attribute to their loving Creator, but human beings filled the Bible with more than just "love God and love one another."

Could that not be the case with other sections that seem questionable to us in the 21st Century?

Or do you deny that any part of the Bible has been picked apart for choice regulations and history?

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Hi Chris.

Hmmm…

The God of the Gaps…yes, well…

You write:

<< He has established 'laws' which 'govern' the way reality operates. >>

Laws of Life, The Universe and Everything occurred because that is what happened when our Universe was born. Humans conveniently discovered them early on, hence they are found in mythologies, even though they may not be understood or described as well as we understand them today. Nor have humans discovered all the laws of this Universe, yet…and most of us do not understand them at all.

As a person with a completely limited view of what a Creator Deity would be like, I would say that I do not understand such an entity or the concept of such an entity at all. If I entertained an idea about such, I would never base my understanding of a Creator Deity on the Christian Bible or any other human written Scripture.

I also have a completely limited view of what the Universe is like or Quantum Mechanics or the brane hypothesis or the multi-verse hypothesis, which is moving ever more toward a theory. I freely admit that I do not understand the vastness of this Universe or anything that is in it. I do not understand brains that can understand it. I do know that it is all material-based stuff that does not require something that created it that is not material stuff…or that is what I believe through my reasoning. I have faith that humans or some other intelligent life form will figure it all out someday…or not. If not, then there is still no reason to follow any mythology to get an answer.

It exists and always has existed is more perfect than God exists and always has existed.

And…that is just my opinion. Everybody has one.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [jeanne53] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Jeanne: Hi.

It exists and always has existed is more perfect than God exists and always has existed. And…that is just my opinion. Everybody has one.

And perfectly at liberty you are to hold to it. If there is a God who is truly responsible for bringing the universe, along with all the physical laws, into existence, then it is extremely doubtful that ' he / she / it ' would be overly concerned about your opinion regarding ' his / her / its ' non existence. Presumably your capacity to doubt anything's existence is one of the attributes originally planned for when the metaphorical blueprints of a universe were being prepared.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Heb. 11:3.

It exists and always has existed is more perfect than God exists and always has existed.

A steady state universe that has always existed is a pretty well debunked scientific theory now Jeanne. It used once to be useful for refuting the Biblical narrative of an initiation event, but is now no longer tenable, having been proved wrong empirically. It is now well accepted almost universally that the current universe at least, had ‘a beginning’, and will almost certainly have ‘an end’. Both of these propositions are supported by scripture.

I do know that it is all material-based stuff that does not require something that created it that is not material stuff…or that is what I believe through my reasoning.

That is the problem with the ‘scientific’ method. If you limit your imagination to only that which can be proven empirically, you restrict yourself to only thinking ‘logically’. Sometimes ‘breakthroughs’ only come when one is able to think ‘laterally’. That requires ‘faith’. The ‘proof’ then sometimes ‘follows on eventually’.

You see you actually don’t know that material based ‘stuff’ requires no non-material cause to explain its material existence. You only think you know, or more accurately you believe. (In most cases that may be enough for getting about from here to there, day by day, but it takes no account whatever of quantum possibilities). At a quantum level matter can materialize and de-materialize utterly unpredictably resulting in the fact that in this universe there can be no such thing as a total vacuum. No one knows where it has ‘come from’ on the quantum level, neither does anyone know where it has ‘gone to’. Until we actually know the answers we will simply have to assume that something causes it to BE part of our universe and then NOT TO BE any longer, part of our universe.

What or who actually makes the rules governing this odd behavior?

Well THAT IS THE QUESTION, as Hamlet soliloquized.

Falsely confident certainty, in either an atheist or a believer, hinders new revelation and insight.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jul 11, 2016, 4:05 AM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
Hi Chris.

Well, I guess I utterly failed to convey my reasoning when simplifying the post.

The "It" is material existence, not THIS Universe. The "laws" that govern only apply to THIS Universe. That "It exists and always has existed" is completely rational when compared to the necessity of having a Creator Deity that has always existed just because its existence satisfies the need to understand an "unknown" for human beings.

I was not writing of a steady state Universe and thought I made that clear when I mentioned that the Multi-Universe hypothesis is moving ever closer towards a theory…but might, of course, be junked as more knowledge becomes available.

The current contemplations are that the Universe may not be ending, but may continue to expand for all eternity…whatever that phrase means. That our Universe may have "popped" off of another and may "pop" off a universe bud of its own are part of what the multi-verse hypothesis is. This is a vastness that is as incomprehensible as the concept of "all eternity."

And…you are correct that any entity that is capable of this astounding feat should have little concern over the speck that is our planet or any of the life that inhabits it. I certainly could have no concept of such an entity and should not be concerned that it cares what I do or say or think or believe.

I am always reminded of the end of "Men In Black" wherein the planet we live upon is among a bag of marbles being played by entities beyond comprehension and the universe of another species is contained in the globe that hangs on the necklace of a cat who is a member of our planet's life forms.

There is indeed a lot that we do not know.

You write:

<<That is the problem with the ‘scientific’ method. If you limit your imagination to only that which can be proven empirically, you restrict yourself to only thinking ‘logically’. Sometimes ‘breakthroughs’ only come when one is able to think ‘laterally’. That requires ‘faith’. The ‘proof’ then sometimes ‘follows on eventually’. >>

You are correct about having faith to make leaps to other ways of thinking, but such faith for me is not faith in unsubstantiated creator deities or supernatural entities.

You continue:

<<You see you actually don’t know that material based ‘stuff’ requires no non-material cause to explain its material existence. You only think you know, or more accurately you believe. >>

Is the Creator Deity of Christianity a material being? Does the Creator Deity reside in our Universe or somewhere else? How can you know any of this or do you just believe? On what do you base this belief?

The leap is to make the unknown into a Creator Deity, instead of just the unknown. First Cause is the God of Christianity? That is an awful mess to make just because some humans want to believe.

<<What or who actually makes the rules governing this odd behavior? >>

The laws of physics, the organization of solar systems, the beginnings and ends of all that is in the Universe became because that is what happened when THIS Universe began its expansion, however that expansion started. It is because it is.

Our type of life exists on this planet because it can, not because the planet was designed by a Creator Deity. There is most likely life on other planets in THIS Universe and it is there because it can be there.

After that…we agree on how life got on to where it is today on our planet.

I am trying to represent the viewpoint of a person who does not believe in unsubstantiated supernatural entities. I think it is okay for me to do that in this forum. Sarah is correct; we are each at different points in a spectrum of what we reason and believe. I am not trying to persuade anyone to my point of view….not possible.

I do think our educational system has failed when our churches contribute to the lack of scientific inquiry because many demand absolute denial of modern theory. Thinking outside the Bible is just as important when considering the hows and whys of "Life, The Universe and Everything."

"Falsely confident certainty" has much appeal when it is accompanied by faith that human beings and our planet were specially and intelligently designed by a Creator Deity who loves its creations.

For atheists, it just means we don't know everything yet, but we tend to accept scientific knowledge that supports what we do know and have faith that further inquiry will bring more knowledge. It also means being willing to toss out knowledge that has been proven to be false. We know that there is no homunculus and we have tossed that false knowledge out.

There are many sects of many religious faiths that refuse to toss out false knowledge because to do so diminishes what they believe is truth. This does not mean that their faith is worthless to them, but that others do not have reason to accept what they believe because of this prejudice toward scientific and other modern theories.

Again, this is my opinion based upon my reasoning. I fully accept that I have limited understanding and knowledge of all scientific data. And I fully accept that in the opinion of Christians, I have very limited understanding and knowledge of their deeply held beliefs and their Holy Scripture. And…even less of other deity beliefs and religions and their Holy Scripture. The lack thereof is probably only one more than most Christians have…just as all Christians are atheists to other deity beliefs.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."

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jeanne53: Jul 11, 2016, 9:19 AM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Reasons I Believe in a Recent Creation In reply to
And there you have it...

If anyone has anything further to say on this topic, could you please begin again in another topic?

Jeanne, I apologize to you for putting it into a male-female relationship... it seemed so to me at the time of my writing.

This topic just goes to show how amazingly different the belief of "Christians" can be. Wasn't there an Aesop's fable or somebody's written about just such a thing? Personally, for me, I am happy just being "Ferdinand, the Bull".
Blessings ~ Sarah