I'd like to discuss end times, prophesy, the book of Revelation with people who are familiar with this subject. I've read the Left Behind series and the book of Revelation but am still curious about other peoples views on the subject. Where do you think we stand in terms of time-frames for the rapture and tribulation? I'm not interested in debating whether it will happen or not, I believe it will, so I'd really like to stick to these issues.



With love in Christ,

Ellen

 I want you to know that I left God about 20 years ago, and came back 2-3 years ago. I am tired of hearing it all the time. I was thinking about not going to church anymore because of it. It's all I hear.



What about salvation? What about basic and advanced teachings about Jesus? It seems that too many people are not thinking about Jesus. Where did salvation and Jesus get lost in the shuffle?



Thanks for listening to the rant.

how bout mixing the 2?



get saved, so you dont get left behind.







the jewish wedding ceremony, lasts ONE WEEK.



the Son can not come for the bride, until his house is built/ready, and its not ready until the FATHER SAYS its ready.



Jhn 14:1 `Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also in me believe;



Jhn 14:2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;



Jhn 14:3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be;



so, just where is this "mansion"?



Act 1:9 And these things having said -- they beholding -- he was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight;



Act 1:10 and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in his going on, then, lo, two men stood by them in white apparel,





is this, the same "cloud"?



Hbr 12:1 Therefore, we also having so great a cloud of witnesses set around us, every weight having put off, and the closely besetting sin, through endurance may we run the contest that is set before us,



Hbr 12:2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;



read genesis 24.



the typical WAY of God, gathering an bride for his Son.

This is a subject that some ministers refuse to speak on due to the mystery of it.



Jesus said that no one knows, except the Heavenly Father, when the end will be.

So it's with that in mind that I'd like to make a few notations.

To start with, there seems to be an unspoken "agreement" of sorts that when speaking of the end times, it's seen as being an all inclusive event.

I used to believe the same thing, until I realized that it isn't a "one time" deal.



For arguments sake, lets say there will be a rapture.

(I personally believe there will be, but I don't expect everyone else to agree with me.)

When the rapture (or taking up) of the Church (Christian believers) takes place, that could be seen as the "end" for those of us who believe; and in a way it is.



This leads to the next point:

What happens to those Left Behind?

Some people believe that it's to late for them. Period.

I have to respectfully disagree with that point.

Although I agree that it's to late for them to be included in the rapture, I do not believe that it's to late for them to still be saved.

The Bible tells us that there will be some who will be saved through troubling times; and when I read of those that God said He has placed His mark upon them (144,000), I believe that He's referring to a time after the rapture.

That's not to say that troubling times do not already exist, they do; but I do not believe that the trials and persecutions taking place now, will be anywhere near what IS going to happen.



Then there's those that refuse to take the "mark" of the beast.

This may, or may not, be within the same time frame, I don't know.

I haven't researched that part to any degree to speak of.

There is also the 1,000 years that Satan will reign on the Earth.

Some believe that he's reigning now, but I'm not one of them.

I personally believe that this is a time apart and separate of the time mentioned earlier.



Then there's the battle of Armageddon; which is what I personally believe to be THE end of time as we know it.

The Bible speaks of a time that Satan will make war against the Lord Jesus Christ and His saints when He returns with them for the final battle.

I have no idea if this is the same as the battle of Armageddon, or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is one in the same.

This is why I mentioned earlier that the rapture could be seen as the "end" for the Church, because "in a way it is."



Again, this just my understanding, so please read it with a HUGE grain of salt!



That being said, I have some things I'd like to toss into the mix, if I may.

The president of Iran has stated that he believes that they, (the radical Muslims, which by no means is an all inclusive statement), are the ones called to usher in the "Messiah", who will bring "peace" when he reigns for 7 years.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know of no other time in history, that someone has spoken of a peace that will last for a "limited time", until now.

It's usually spoken of in terms of "a lasting peace",or "a peaceful resolution toward a lasting peace", or something else along that order.

I believe it was the prophet Daniel that first spoke of a 7 year "peace" that is brokered by the anti-Christ; but who also reneges 3 1/2 years into the agreement reached between him and the rest of the world.

So when keeping in mind the idea that Satan likes to use, what I like to call, trial runs, for the sake of desensitizing the people of this world, I have to wonder if this announcement by the president of Iran was just a "trial run", or is it for real?

The dificulty this topic presents is mostly in the symboligy of the "creatures" which open the scrolls, pour the bowls, etc.

A section of Revelation I find intriguing is Chapter 20, more specifically verses 3-5. This section talks about those who were beheaded during the tribulation period for refusing to take the "mark of the beast". They come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years.



I basically agree with the words of Politicalchristian. His words are a good place to move on from regarding these topics in Revelation. It has been many years since I have delved into this book of prophecy.



Steve

rurik1,



Thanks for the compliment, but I can't take any credit.

It all belongs to the Lord.

I see you are interested in studying the end times, I am also very interested and would love share thoughts on this subject with you. One thing I need to mention is that I have always been under the impression the 1000 year reign is that of Christ not the enemy. To substantiate this thought I refer to Revelation Chapter 20 verses 4 thru 6. I believe the study is very relevant today and necessary. I believe God is pushing many toward this study for a reason only he knows.

Hi Ellen,



We haven't spoken for quite a while. Good to see your post.



Before I start digging into my files may I ask if there is a particular subject you are interested in or do you want to go completely through the Book of Revelation? Let me know and I will come back and go into detail.



Respectfully, your friend and brother in Christ,

Doc



PS: I'm posting info on a new prophecy study Bible in a seperate thread here in this forum. Take a look.

Hi Elyown,



I can understand your feelings about the subject of prophecy and the end times. However there is somthing that is all too often ovelooked by both the clergy and the Bible student and that is the total purpose of prophecy.



While I'm looking for answers for Ellen (JesusGirl04), I'll also retrieve a copy of "The Purpose of Prophecy" for your consideration. The study of prophecy not only explains the end times but it also is ment for the encouragement of the belivers.



Respectfully, your brother in Christ,

Doc

A great many teachings have been developed from the apocolyptic language of the book of Revelation. Often, to me it seems like certain people develop or adopt a teaching from Revelation and then try to fit the rest of the New Testament into it. Another approach is that we know what Revelation is not saying by the clear language of the other New Testament books.



Verse one of the book of Revelation says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place" (v.1). I know I will be unpopular for stating I believe Revelation was indeed a warning to churches that were on the verge of going through a great persecution. While others believe the term, "things which must shortly take place" could be talking a couple of thousand years into the future, I don't believe that is true. Verse 3 says, "for the time is near."



I believe the next time Jesus comes that is the end of the world. That is when the saves are taken first and the rest are judged. I don't believe the interpretation that Jesus is coming, rapturing the saved, bringing them to heaven to be with Him for seven years while the tribulation takes place on earth, and then Jesus comes back to the earth to establish his kingdom for a thousand years. That should stir a few people up.



When interpreting the apocolyptic language of Revelation, is the 144,000 a literal 144,000 people or is there a different meaning to it? It is interesting that 12x12 is 144. There was twelve tribes of Israel. Is there symbolism in this? Also, is the 1,000 years a literal 1,000 years or is it referring to something else, such as the representation of a long period of time?



When I read the other New Testament books, I do not see Jesus coming a couple more times. My understanding is that He will come one more time. 1 Thessalonians chapter 1 seems to say Jesus is coming with judgment upon the unrighteous by to be "glorified in His saints," as if everything happens in one event.



What is Revelation Chapter 13 talking about? Is it an actual beast, or is it apocolyptic language for an great army of more than one nation coming across the sea? Could "like a leopard" mean the army was coming fast? Could "his feet be like the feet of a bear" be referring to a marching army once it arrives on land? Could "his mouth like the mouth of a lion" be talking about the loud war cries of a large army? Rather than an actual physical, literal creature that looks like this, perhaps the interpretation is about something else? Many interpretations have come from that passage.



I remember 25 years ago people were getting all worked up that the apocolypse was about to happen. People thought they would see it in the 80s. People were being terrified to become Christians because they were about to miss the rapture. Rather, Jesus may come tonight, tomorrow morning, or 200 years from now. People have been doing this read the signs stuff for years, and here we are again, being told on certain TV shows, this time everything really is lined up correctly for the great tribulation to happen.



Premillenialism is not the only view of Revelation, but it gets the most attention because it always has people holding onto their seats believing in some new way of reading the future of what is about to happen. There is also post-mellenialism and a-mellenialism. The fact is, if you don't have the gift of interpretation, you are going to have fun making sense of it all.



I try to remember Revelation 22:18, 19 before making any certain claims about what this book is saying. Others are not so concerned.



The most important thing is that I believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God, that He was born of a virgin, that He did die for my sins, that He rose again, and that He will return for me (though I don't think to bring me back to earth again for a thousand years, see 1 Thess. 4:13 - 5:11).



While we may disagree on the events of Revelation, or "the Day of the Lord," I don't believe it is cause for division.



That's just one view.



God bless

The Rapture is taught in Scripture ( ! Thess. 4: 16-17; 2 Thess. 2: 1-3). Jesus said that He will raise up all that the Fathe has given to him at the last day (John 6: 39-40), therefore the rapture will take place at the last day, at the end of the age. See Matt. 13: 36-43, 48-49.



If all the righteous, dead and alive put on immortality at the last trumpet (! Cor. 15: 50-54) and all the unrighteous are punished with everlasting destruction at the appearing of Jesus (2 Thess. 1: 6-10), from where will people come in natural bodies to go into a millennium with the potential of having children as is taught by dispensationalists?



Joseph



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