http://www.praize.com/forums/ en-us no-reply@praize.com Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:54:27 GMT Gossamer Forum by Gossamer Threads, Inc. http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification http://www.praize.com/forum/icons/gforum-logo.png http://www.praize.com/forums/ 50 50 http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bgloriousdays%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119462/?page=unread#119462 I'm not going anywhere. I'm just going to make my posts and let everyone else do the same. I'll respond only to people who want an honest discussion and leave all others alone. 0e3a50457d1c7a6ee191930bbdf4f739 Jun 17, 2013, 7:35 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119461/?page=unread#119461 Hi Allen! Ha Ha Ha ha Heh heh heh heeee! Cool it brother, cool it! don't leave us so fast. With love and peace to you. Abdool 140b069db8feba22c5b43f3b39199356 Jun 17, 2013, 7:07 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119460/?page=unread#119460 Hello Evangelist-1, Ha, Ha, Ha, Haaaw! Me thinks Jesus is THE WAY for born again Christians! The road is taken care of for them. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of DEATH, I will fear no evil, for THOU art with me. The road (THE Way) is WITH ME! Ha! Ha! Ha! FOREVER and FOREVER! With love and peace to you. Abdool 07d7bf09bdde74343799eff9b5b2cdc1 Jun 17, 2013, 6:53 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Brdrcofe%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119459/?page=unread#119459 This is exactly why I left Praize before. According to Chaplain Bob, all he needs is the Bible and God's Word. You on the other hand agree that there are methods to be used for interpreying Scripture. If you didn't you would not reseaech anything. Yet you want to attack my Fundamental stand and accuse me of leadind us back into the middle ages. That was not my purpose in starting the thread and, I'll not bother leaving this time. Y'll follow your example though and refuse to answer your posts. In fact, I'll move this to my blog and forget the debates and forums etirely. Besides, Why should I listen to an Anglican who accuses me of following Roman Catholic tradition. That is your "sister chirch" as you once said. It is government owned and operated. So, have fun doing whatever you wish. b7b208e0567fa107a12052d9f0f7b4d8 Jun 17, 2013, 6:08 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bchaplainbob%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119458/?page=unread#119458 Sorry, but even according to your view, you have no business judging my choice of verses. I called you ignorant because the Holy Spirit told me to use that verse. 6d6f48211b587b3ccdbe10a36988c7dc Jun 17, 2013, 5:49 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bgloriousdays%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119457/?page=unread#119457 G_D, art thou claiming to be the promised restrainer? Okay, if thou wishes it, I will boast in the nature of the new covenant, for it is absolutely filled with such wonderful exhortation-warning combos as: “… so now (BAC sinners) present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. … having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.” (Rom 6:19-22) Methinks most BACs today are on the wrong road ... the broad road. f1ee078bbd05d03e715b1e69e6e81f2f Jun 17, 2013, 4:40 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119456/?page=unread#119456 Probiblos: Then who needs the Bible. Let God speak to everyone. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. When I ask God the meaning of something I have read or any other question, I believe I shall receive an answer to my question sooner or later. Often the answers have come from all sorts of other places than just the Bible. God knows what we need to know and how to get the information to us if we really want it. God is certainly not limited to using only The Bible to convey 'wisdom' to his people. God has a multitude of means available and uses all of them often. The trouble is that so many really religious folk think that God only speaks through their interpretation of The Bible. All other interpretations must therefore be wrong. All other explanations suspect and defective. Symptomatic of 'wavering' in their attitude to God's ability to communicate to those who want to know. To have the true interpretation locked up in a book, and to be the sole custodians of that guarded truth, was the ambition of the Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. The Reformation ended their monopoly on the truth of scripture. The Roman Church hierarchy at that time betrayed and burnt William Tyndale for exposing their power hungry embargo on God's Words, by printing and selling The Bible in English. Now ironically there are those who would seek to limit the truth that can be obtained from it to only that which conforms to their own fundamentalist interpretation of it. In short, the Bible once again becomes a tool for the propagation of a highly selective and conformist interpretation of what is written therein. My how the wheel has turned full circle. Regards Chris. d402fc3739aa7117327226f8711c14ca Jun 17, 2013, 2:53 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119455/?page=unread#119455 Probiblos1948 wrote: Then who needs the Bible. Let God speak to everyone. It is your method of interpretation that has led to errors and denominational differences through the years. It is also obvious we will never agree so, conversation is over. I am a firm believer in 1 Cor. 4:38, "...But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." I refuse to debate with you any further.[/] There is no debate. Either one listens to God or he doesn't. Interesting that you call listening to God ignorance. The problem with man-science is that it can pass misinterpretation down from one generation to the next. There is no misinterpretation with the Author. 3f74f006b0cb896e8cc87635665f717d Jun 17, 2013, 2:19 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bchaplainbob%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119454/?page=unread#119454 Then who needs the Bible. Let God speak to everyone. It is your method of interpretation that has led to errors and denominational differences through the years. It is also obvious we will never agree so, conversation is over. I am a firm believer in 1 Cor. 4:38, "...But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." I refuse to debate with you any further. 8e1c80122202261cbb9bfcd368e34ea8 Jun 17, 2013, 1:39 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119453/?page=unread#119453 Probiblos1948 wrote: There's been too much "man-science" in interpreting the Bible which has led to much misunderstanding. If you want the correct interpretation (as if anything needed to be interpreted) go to God. You are free to believe what you wish but, unless you follow some principles of interpretation you are heading for disaster and/or false doctrine. God chose human language and their rules to reveal Himself. He used human instruments to reach across cultures with the Gospel. The cannon is clued and God speaks to us through His Word and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Paul told Timothy to rightly divide the Word of Truth. This involves study and careful systematic study of God's Word. Your method is subjective leading to what easch individual wants the Bible to say for him. My "method" is to listen to God and what He says Scripture means. To depend on man-science is where one goes wrong and can be led astray. God WILL speak directly to people today is they only listen. 73d397e1700b5a5152c4962a58be1442 Jun 17, 2013, 12:28 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5Bchaplainbob%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119452/?page=unread#119452 There's been too much "man-science" in interpreting the Bible which has led to much misunderstanding. If you want the correct interpretation (as if anything needed to be interpreted) go to God. You are free to believe what you wish but, unless you follow some principles of interpretation you are heading for disaster and/or false doctrine. God chose human language and their rules to reveal Himself. He used human instruments to reach across cultures with the Gospel. The cannon is clued and God speaks to us through His Word and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Paul told Timothy to rightly divide the Word of Truth. This involves study and careful systematic study of God's Word. Your method is subjective leading to what easch individual wants the Bible to say for him. 536e6953a6bf8cbe1c4e977e578da888 Jun 17, 2013, 12:22 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119451/?page=unread#119451 Probiblos1948 wrote: In one sense you are right but, God chose to reveal Himself in human history and in human language. There are rules that apply while we study the Word of God. Hermeunitics is both a science and an art that is guided by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. There's been too much "man-science" in interpreting the Bible which has led to much misunderstanding. If you want the correct interpretation (as if anything needed to be interpreted) go to God. 8020546ce8a5b2cc3bcf6ec5048912d7 Jun 17, 2013, 10:11 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119450/?page=unread#119450 Hi evangelist-1, You have given several scriptures with LIMITED explanations. I wish you would also balance the warnings with THE EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES that are given to us. Under the third sub-heading where you listed the NEW Covenant, it would have been wonderful if you had shown the NATURE of the New Covenant. IT IS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT. NO MAN (WOMAN also, as in mankind) CAN ADD to it or TAKE AWAY from it. That alone means THAT YOUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT PART OF THE COVENANT. You are MIXING UP YOUR WORKS OF HOLY LIVING OR SANCTIFICATION with THE NEW COVENANT SANCTIFICATION. Eternal life is a gift NOT A PROCESS. It is GIVEN, I REPEAT, GIVEN to a BELIEVER based on GOD's GRACE ALONE. Even the faith that the believer acted on is a GIFT. If a believer adds to that faith his own works of faith, which he or she uses for holy living, then the believer is BOASTING. That is not in agreement with the doctrines of GRACE. Boasting is a no, no, and will always be, as far as God's GRACE is concerned. Besides, there is a scripture that says about the Lord Jesus, that He is the way, the truth and THE LIFE (ETERNAL LIFE). You are making Jesus into a process. When someone receives eternal life, he or she is NOT RECEIVING SOMETHING THAT IS A PROCESS that can FAIL. He or she is RECEIVING THE EVERLASTING JESUS. That is the true Jesus, who I preach. He is the eternal life and He WILL RAISE HIS CHOSEN CHILDREN at the appointed time, without FAILURE! Within the words of the promise of the New Covenant, God declares His NATURE! He is WONDERFULLY MERCIFUL! He is EVERLASTINGLY MERCIFUL. He is not like the preachers who receive your tithes and offerings, and knowing that you have been blessed and not cursed, still screams from the pulpits, "You are cursed with a curse! You have robbed God of tithes and offerings!" God also REVEALS His power and might by saying, "I WILL", "make, put, write, GIVE, be, AND CAUSE YOU". That means even your Holy Living WILL BE BLESSED. The NEWNESS OF LIFE that believers must experience IS NOT entirely DEPENDENT ON THEM, as you are conveying! I can go on, but I must restrain myself, lest I become overbearing to some of you. With love and peace to you. Abdool cecd452de889d0d86c67011d20742df1 Jun 16, 2013, 6:18 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bpraizeop2%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119449/?page=unread#119449 Hi Sarah. but if it helps one person to question their own salvation, that is a good thing. I'd rather say 'If it helps anyone to have increased confidence that their salvation is entirely already accomplished by Jesus Christ, and that their dependence on HIS righteousness and their commitment and increasing desire to follow HIS Way of life, is guaranteeing their continued inclusion and protection in His flock', that is a good thing. the Bible says that even the demons believe and tremble. 'Believe', in the sense that they are convinced of Christ's authority, but not accepting of it. My guess is that once human beings have the same ' view and understanding of things in the spiritual realm ', as the demons do, then they will come under the same rule as them. Meanwhile I think human beings can claim ignorance as a reason for their rejection of Christ's authority and his gift of reconciliation with God, and God may graciously accept that , at least on this side of the grave. But, after this life, when we will 'know even as also we are known', all things will be different. The question with respect of salvation we must ask ourselves is "Knowing my self to be saved by God's grace alone, what am I doing about that"? Regards Chris. 99af6c32fd12892b2cb878fbe16454fd Jun 15, 2013, 12:55 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119448/?page=unread#119448 Salvation is a simple uncomplicated thing explained in John 3:16. No need for a long dissertation on the subject. 87addc125ef03a3b7897930d715ddad1 Jun 14, 2013, 11:56 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Re%3A_%5Bevangelist-1%5D_Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119447/?page=unread#119447 Salvation is a really interesting topic. I don't know if talking about it ever changes anyone's opinion, but if it helps one person to question their own salvation, that is a good thing. I have a very close friend who attends the Catholic church. Everything about her is Godly. She is the most giving and caring person I have every met. In my opinion, she walks in Godliness. I mentioned this to a Christian friend the other day. I said I didn't know anything about her "salvation experience", but Christ is certainly living His life out through her. The friend I was talking to said that Catholics believe in Jesus and that he is the Son of God and they speak to that effect every Sunday in mass. She was intimating that that Catholics were "saved" because every Sunday they recognized Jesus as the Son of God. But the Bible says that even the demons believe and tremble. So I have been thinking about this. I have an opinion, what's yours? And where does this (that I have written) fit into the OP? Blessings ~ Sarah 8e03a731d882870c156863a91caa2e54 Jun 13, 2013, 1:32 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/Summary_of_how_God_grants_salvation_and_to_whom_P119446/?page=unread#119446 This is where I am now, one revelation at a time. Perhaps this will help someone. God has given what appears to be opposite sides of some doctrines for a reason: so that some spiritual truths are available only by revelation through His Spirit. The NT is an incredible inter-weaving of blessings, explanations, exhortations, edifications, rebukes, and warnings that the blessings are conditional. God revealed who He desires to spend eternity with Those who have a contrite and humble spirit (Isaiah 57:15, Psalm 34:18, Prov 3:34) Those who have a repentant heart towards God (Jeremiah 25:5, Ezekiel 18:30) Those who are holy, i.e. can be made holy (Exodus 19:6, Leviticus 11:44,19:2) Those who are obedient to His will (Matthew 7:21) … “And you shall keep My statutes, and perform them: I am the LORD who sanctifies you” (Leviticus 20:8) Notice that God’s OT “chosen people” must co-operate in their sanctification! God proved that man is basically unable to satisfy Him In the old covenant, it was almost impossible for God’s people to obey His Law! They had an inherited sin nature, and they did not have God’s Spirit to help them. God desired to prove man’s hopelessness, and His “chosen people” did just that. God promised a new and better covenant This included a Messiah-Redeemer-Savior, the Holy Spirit placed inside people, a possible relationship with God, and a way for Him to forgive people’s sins. “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant … I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jer 31:31-33). Note: God’s Law (e.g. the Ten Commandments) are to remain in the new covenant. “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you … I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them … you shall be My people, and I will be your God.” (Ezek 36:24-28) The Spirit will help those who co-operate with Him in being obedient to God’s will. He will cause the obedient ones (through His Spirit inside) to walk in His statutes. He will NOT cause the disobedient ones to do such. Man always has free will to choose sin and disobedience … both before and after being born-again. God’s free gift of grace-faith-salvation “… the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing … whose minds the god of this age (Satan) has blinded” (1 Cor 1:18, 2 Cor 4:3-4) This is just one of many reasons why man is not able to believe in the gospel. These reasons just prove that it was necessary for God to intervene, so He did: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9) Biblical grace refers to “God’s unmerited favor towards man”. The very beginning of God’s grace is that ANY person could be saved at all. Here Paul is talking about SOME being given the gift of grace-faith-salvation. However, this is just the beginning of the process of salvation ... because it is a salvation which can be thrown away (see many warning verses). Who really believes To fit the rest of Scripture, the English word “believe” (Greek “pisteou”) in verses such as John 3:16 must actually mean “believe, trust, depend on, follow, obey”. Greek words can have up to 40 different meanings, depending on the context. God desires to have a personal relationship with us “I know My sheep, and I am known by My own … My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life” (John 10:14,27) “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3) Some people really think they “know” God, but are mistaken (Matt 7:23, 25:12). God requires that we overcome sin by being sanctified (i.e. made holy) “God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth” (2 Thes 2:13-14) “… those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 2:11 and 10:14, NKJV) “For as many as are being led by God’s Spirit, these are sons of God” (Rom 8:14) The Holy Spirit (Helper, Advocate, etc.) was given to us for a specific purpose … primarily to help us and guide us through the sanctification process. “To him who overcomes (sin, Satan, etc.) I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Rev 3:21) Jesus, i.e. God, suffered a lot for us, and He expects some serious appreciation! God requires holiness, which is accomplished through repentance “He chose us … that we should be holy and without blame” (Eph 1:4) “Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14) “let us cleanse ourselves … perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Cor 7:1) “as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct” (1 Pet 1:15) “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God” (Rom 12:1) “He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish” (Eph 5:27) “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection” (Rev 20:6) Repentance of on-going sin is necessary to cleanse ourselves … “… the goodness of God leads you to repentance” (Rom 2:4) “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation” (2 Cor 7:10) “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9) Note: There has been a lot of confusion between those who were elected before the foundation of the world, and other “believers” … as alluded to by the wheat and the tares, the wise and foolish virgins, etc. 640490677bd6fb187f69085159fcc70e Jun 12, 2013, 12:41 PM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119445/?page=unread#119445 Do you by any chance remember making the following statement? "Take for example the parable of the Ten Maidens Matt. 25:1-13. The context (24:32 - 25:46) shows that Matthew interprets the whole parable as an allegory of the return of Jesus Christ in the second coming. In verse 1 the ‘then’ refers back to the ‘coming’ mentioned in 24:44 and 50, and this is also referred to in v. 13: ‘Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour’.: Now you say, " The references to Christ’s return therefore probably do not belong to the original form of the parable as delivered by Jesus to a totally different audience " The whole passage had to do with the answer o the questions of the disciples, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" There is no doubt that the second coming was in view. Also, I believe that we have God's preserved Word Chris. There is no doubt that the verse was n the received text. 38ed178f1dd38ba5eac6c383e73ca0a3 Jun 11, 2013, 11:26 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119444/?page=unread#119444 Probiblos1948: We have the inspired Word of God and, if the Holy Spirit said (through Matthew) that those were the Words of Christ, I'll accept then as true. " Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh ." Apparently, Jesus used the parable as an allegory of the His return . It wasn't Matthew's interpretation but the Lord's. It could also be true however that Jesus was not speaking of his second coming but of his first coming. The people did not all recognise his messianic credentials. The Pharisees rejected him and did not 'go out to meet him' as a bridegroom. The crowd Jesus was speaking to were the context for his words. What Jesus said was relevant to them and a second coming was not the subject of his concern at that time. It was more important that they understood who Jesus was then , 'at the time of their visitation'. The parable (as delivered to the original hearers), was about how they received their Messiah, there and then. Matthews readers were not the same crowd at all. Matthew wrote to post resurrection believers, mostly Jews, who formed the early church. Matthew's added exegesis and interpretation of the meaning of what Jesus said is aimed at making the words of Jesus relevant to the church's situation in the new age of grace, looking forward to the second return of Christ. So it was not necessarily Jesus who was referring allegorically to his future return, (after his death, resurrection, ascension and glorification), but rather to his first visit to earth from heaven to carry out his mission as 'the suffering servant'. Matthew's interpretation makes what Jesus said to a Jerusalem crowd, before his death, relevant to ALL generations. This demonstrates how scripture has many meanings, not just one. Regards Chris. 8d1f63afdcea315c582ef8f7a820f24d Jun 11, 2013, 4:39 AM http://www.praize.com/forums/Bible__C4/Bible_Translations_F59/Re%3A_%5BProbiblos1948%5D_Interpretating_the_Bible_P119443/?page=unread#119443 However God chooses to do it. In my case He has spoken directly to me to interpret certain verses. d3b6258857df83c9c8191f9a0eb8fc3d Jun 10, 2013, 11:54 PM