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Vaccines and autism...

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Vaccines and autism...
Okay, Sarah, let me review the topic to which you finally replied weeks after I posted to it and when you were tired and in a fed-up humor.

In James’ post is brought up the topic of autism caused by vaccinations against the so-called childhood diseases. We know these are not just childhood diseases because they have throughout history devastated whole communities by killing children and adults.

I have included here some information concerning the myth of vaccine caused autism. I hope that it might cause some who wonder about this to research some more.

An interesting and educated guess by some is that those humans that are high systematizers tend to marry and breed with other high systematizers, which is why autistic children are often born to and grandfathered by males who excel in engineering and mathematics and computer technology. This would follow with the genetics-as-cause over the environment-as-cause in regards to autism.

We also must recognize that the autistic spectrum is very broad and is continuing to broaden, such that nearly every person could be diagnosed within its spectrum in the future. I think it is now at one in fifty-four children diagnosed. There are government benefits to having a child diagnosed as autistic, thus the incentive to have ones child so diagnosed. And if one can blame Big-Pharma and Evil Science then all the better.

This over diagnosing diminishes those who truly suffer from autism and I consider it to be detrimental.

I will continue to address your final shot across the bow, Sarah, in my next post.

From this website’s (https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-intuitive-parent/201812/vaccines-cause-autism-the-lie-never-dies-1) article:

<<A crucial and indisputable fact about the “vaccines cause autism” narrative is that it is founded on fraudulent research. This is not simply an opinion. The original article appearing in the prestigious medical journal, The Lancet, in 1998[2] with Dr. Andrew Wakefield as the lead author who reported that “Onset of behavioral symptoms was associated, by the parents, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children…” was retracted in 2010 by the editors of The Lancet. They stated: “Following the judgment of the UK General Medical Council’s Fitness to Practice Panel on Jan 28, 2010, it has become clear that several elements of the 1998 paper by Wakefield et al are incorrect…”[3] Moreover, Dr. Wakefield, the clinician who pushed this false narrative, lost his license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom.[4] In concise language, the original “vaccines cause autism” research was fraudulent, plain and simple.[5]

<<It is perhaps ironic that this original "vaccines cause autism" lie was based upon only 12 children, but refuting this lie by disproving this fraudulent research required studies that now include literally millions of children. This disproportionality is due, in part, to the scientific problem of “proving a negative.” It is certainly true that science can indeed disprove a falsehood (see the Psychology Today article by Stephen Law, Ph.D.),[6] but the process requires multiple replications with negative findings to prove that vaccines do not cause autism. There are now multiple comprehensive scientific reviews showing that vaccines do not cause autism that combine public health data and scientific studies in the U.S. and data from other countries as well.[7] Despite the overwhelming evidence indicating that vaccines do not cause autism, too many people — including physicians — continue to hold <this> misguided point of view. Another important challenge for clinicians, scientists, and public health officials is that the actual cause of autism is not yet known.>>

From this website (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/)

<<Scientists and organizations across the world spent a great deal of time and money refuting the results of a minor paper in the Lancet and exposing the scientific fraud that formed the basis of the paper. Appallingly, parents across the world did not vaccinate their children out of fear of the risk of autism, thereby exposing their children to the risks of disease and the well-documented complications related thereto. Measles outbreaks in the UK in 2008 and 2009 as well as pockets of measles in the USA and Canada were attributed to the nonvaccination of children.[7] The Wakefield fraud is likely to go down as one of the most serious frauds in medical history.[9]>>

<<Scientists who publish their research have an ethical responsibility to ensure the highest standards of research design, data collection, data analysis, data reporting, and interpretation of findings; there can be no compromises because any error, any deceit, can result in harm to patients as well harm to the cause of science, as the Wakefield saga so aptly reveals. >>

And from this website (http://time.com/5175704/andrew-wakefield-vaccine-autism/)

<<Wakefield was de-licensed by medical authorities for his deceit and “callous disregard” for children in his care. It took nearly two decades for the UK immunization rates to recover. By the end, UK families had experienced more than 12,000 cases of measles, hundreds of hospitalizations — many with serious complications — and at least three deaths.>>

<<Stunningly, the vaccine-autism myth still persists. It was amplified by the British media during its early years, later by celebrity endorsement and more recently by worldwide social media. Wakefield has continued his own relentless personal campaigning, moving well beyond the initial MMR vaccine scaremongering to attacking the CDC in his controversial film Vaxxed. The film was pulled before screening at the Tribeca Film Festival but found its way into independent theaters in the U.S. and Europe. Europe’s four-fold increase in measles cases and 35 measles-related deaths in 2017 — due largely to people not getting vaccinated — also reflects how Wakefield’s vaccine-autism scare can spark vaccine refusals that lead to debilitating and fatal cases of measles.>>

<<In the U.S., measles was declared eliminated in 2000. Since 2000, however, there has been a resurgence of measles, with more than 2,216 reported cases. Wakefield’s anti-vaccine fanaticism contributed to the 2015 outbreak in Disneyland in California, which eventually infected more than 130 people, and to the 2017 measles outbreaks in Minnesota, where his message persuaded many parents not to vaccinate their children.
The vaccine-autism myth has also prompted an alarming number of millennials — the generation that came of age in the era of Wakefield’s misinformation —in the U.S. not to vaccinate their children. Vaccine reluctance does not apply just to measles; flu kills 100 to 300 children under age 5 each year, and up to 85% of them were not vaccinated when they died.>>

<<What will it take to protect parents and children from this kind of fraudulent science?
First, trust is vital in order for people to accept health interventions. The messenger can be more important than the message. Thus, the advice of trusted primary healthcare providers, families and friends is often much more influential than the cold facts of official sources. Fortunately, trust can be built or rebuilt over time, as the UK demonstrated when it reached 95% measles immunization coverage.>>

<<Second, the medical community must redouble its efforts to ensure the integrity of its evidence. And it must move rapidly to address suspected scientific fraud. Wakefield was not disciplined by the UK medical authorities, nor was the article retracted by The Lancet until 2010, despite serious concerns raised by experts at the time of publication and the 2004 expose on Wakefield’s sloppy science and retraction by co-authors.>>

<<Third, print and broadcast media have a special responsibility to provide clear, evidenced-based reporting. The decline in MMR immunization following Wakefield’s article was accelerated by the pro-Wakefield UK media, despite increasingly strong evidence refuting Wakefield’s claims. Conversely, the recovery from Wakefield’s damaging impact was catalyzed by the 2004 investigative journalism reports exposing Wakefield’s flawed science and conflicts of interest. Truth wins, if we’re committed to telling it.
Fourth, state health officials must ensure that public health policies are enforced as intended. The rise in measles cases in many states resulted from the loosening of immunization requirements for school entry. California has raised its vaccine coverage by enacting stronger vaccination policies to curtail such exemptions.>>

<<Finally, in an age of social media, frequent distrust of authorities and increasing epidemic threats, parents and educators have a vital role in helping children from an early age learn the skills of critical thinking and informed skepticism to discern life-saving facts from fatal fictions.>>
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."

Last edited by:

jeanne53: Feb 27, 2019, 12:52 PM
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Re: [jeanne53] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Now, Sarah, when I asked Chris if parents in the UK still believe the deliberate lie and was there a cult that surrounds the myth, he said that unfortunately there is but that it was "less driven by fundamentalist religion and more by just plain ignorance or gullibility."

I agreed and replied that "most of the people who cling to this cult of no-vaccines do so from ignorance and not religious beliefs."

I added we "have Hollywood stars to thank for much of the drivel that passes for intelligent thought about science and government."

These people, and not all of them, who live in a fantasy world of believing in a Socialist Utopia where nobody has to work to eat and live also consider the rest of us as the "great unwashed" that live somewhere over which my private jet flies to get from the West Coast to the East Coast when I do shows or go to fabulous parties...things that "those people" (deplorables who probably voted for Trump) can never appreciate.

These people shout idiocies about vaccines and GMO foods and our Constitution and without benefit of any true knowledge or education on matters of import blog or podcast their opinions and beliefs to the people that they depend upon for their living, yet actually despise. We should not be taking our medical advice or political advice from the bubbleheads.

Those who believe beyond the possibility to be informed that vaccines cause autism often surround themselves with like-minded folk, who believe as fanatically as they do. They preach and promote this idea often using their grand personalities to sway the gullible. This is cult like activity.

I wrote this:

<<And, considering their stance on abortion and pedophilia, they can't actually be Christians, though they profess to be. >>

Their stance on abortion is "anytime and anywhere and paid for by our taxes." They stand up and cheer for pedophiles and some actively believe that there is no harm there. And we have seen how a pediophilic club existed in Hollywood. No, this is not Christian. It is not Humanistic either.

I did not call your opinions "drivel" but I do question that you consider yourself informed about vaccines and about autism.

You may conclude for yourself and as I suppose you did for your children that vaccines are unnecessary, but that only proves to me that you do not understand the Herd concept of having most children and adults vaccinated for deadly diseases. When the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated becomes too close then the Herd concept breaks down and we have outbreaks of deadly diseases that we thought were only in the nightmares of our ancestors.

If you preach this idea of no-vaccines because they cause autism and cancer, etc. then you are promoting them for others in hopes that they will do as you do. But, you say that you get some vaccines. Which are they? And why do you consider them to be safe? Did you have your children vaccinated? Did they have their children vaccinated?

If the schools and colleges refused to admit children because of lack of vaccinations, do you think this is evilL

-Jeanne

I get that ratio thing confused in my mind. Do I have it correct...anybody? "When the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated becomes too close then the Herd concept breaks down and we have outbreaks of deadly diseases that we thought were only in the nightmares of our ancestors."
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."

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jeanne53: Feb 28, 2019, 9:57 AM
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Re: [jeanne53] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Well, at least this topic is not going unread...
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [jeanne53] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Whether or not my children were vaccinated before attending public grade school is irrelevant as their (my children's grade school) attendance was over fifty years ago. I defy you to compare the ingredients of the vaccines then with vaccines now. I would not allow any of my children to come under a doctor's care these days, without serious considerations, as doctor's ministrations are the third highest cause of death in this country. I have no idea how much of this conclusion is due to the doctor's themselves or the medications that are being handed out today. It is a dangerous time when a parent cannot trust their doctor. The advantage we have as Christians is that we can pray and hear whether or not we should go to a particular doctor or take a particular medication.

The advantage that parents have today is that they can look up all meds and treatments on the internet. I suggest you do a thorough study on any symptoms and medications that you feel led to try for yourself and your family. You may save a life.
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [praizeop2] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Sarah, your sentiments sound similar to those in most sects I would consider to be fanatic in their disdain for modern medicine and medical technology.

I am sure you don't care a wit for what I think. And, further, you have all right to live the way you believe is correct. Until, your actions, or lack of action, puts others at risk.

When that risk becomes great enough that the health of others and their children is put at risk, then either you and yours and those who live as you do must be isolated from the rest of society or be made to comply. I know the Jehovah's Witnesses attempt that often and their views concerning modern medicine are as bizarre as yours. They are willing to risk their lives and their children's lives on quacks, who offer everything but modern medicine.

To eschew modern preventive medicine for the guidance of prayer is foolish.

That you consider it better to risk the awful diseases that wiped out so much of humanity because you fear them or because they are not of your God is just mind boggling.

Your reasoning about being under a doctor's care is similar to a person who won't go to the hospital because so many people die there.

Do you actually think that somebody as intelligent as I does not educate herself about illnesses and their symptoms and the benefits of medication outweighing the risks of either those medications or not treating the illness?

Are you only intelligent because you pray for guidance, Sarah?

Very frustrating...

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [jeanne53] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
This country was founded on people who believed in one God and the hearing and answering of prayer. The fact that you don't believe in those things doesn't automatically make them wrong... except for you.. And you have the freedom here to do as you please.

I do have grandchildren and great-grandchildren who are still being raised in this country. Fortunately, their parents have the intelligence to guide them in the right way, whatever they believe that right way to be.

I think, in answer to your last paragraph, praying for guidance has just as much value as whatever you use to educate yourself on. Maybe more.
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [jeanne53] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
jeanne: Sarah: Hi

An extreme example of ignorance, (which is sin when it is a chosen course rather than the pursuit of wisdom), is the spread of disease by insanitary living conditions and lack of personal hygiene which allowed plague to spread in times gone by.

It is a hisorical fact that ignorance drove the pogroms against Jewish communities on account of the tendency for the general populations in some European cities noticing that the Jewish communities, (which tended to keep to themselves), were less affected by disease than the general community, (which generaly had very much lower standards of hygiene and sanitary arrangements).

The result was the superstitious belief that it was the Jews that were the reason for the higher fatality among 'Christians', rather than the apalling hygiene and sanitation in the 'believing', 'Christian', communities. The appalling conditions were a result of the ignorance of the Christians in comparison to the wisdom of the Jews in their adherance to the hygiene regulations in Levitical Law.

Thus a foolish application of what was considered to be 'faith' in God, was in fact ignorant superstition and stupidity intermixed with prejudice and rejection of the profound wisdom to be found in the scriptures. If we are actually willing to apply ourselves to the necessity of discovering TRUTH, rather than merely wrongly believing we already are in full posession of it, we will get insight and become more wise. Prov.4:5-7.

This lack of 'searching for insight' was also the major factor preventing the Pharisees from understanding the teaching of their own Messiah and which resulted in their rejection of Him, to their own destruction. They were convinced they were right. That was their mistake. That their 'faith' in the scriptures and their interpretation of them relinquished them from consideration of any new teaching which might contradict their own defective understanding. They preserved their ignorance and called it 'faith'.

"If the light in you is darkness, then the darkness is doubly dark". Matt.6:23; Matt.4:16; 1 Thes.5:4-5. Darkness is ignorance of the truth, and TRUTH is not exclusively 'religious'. Truth is just truth, because it is true. To deny it is to deny Christ. John 14:6.
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In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Mar 6, 2019, 1:29 AM
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Re: [praizeop2] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Actually, the country was founded on economic concerns by a people with diverse religious beliefs, including atheists and deists.

The first English to arrive here and try to make a go of living in the New World were Christians who set up a Communist community, but who ended up failing miserably, dying of disease and starvation and reduced to cannibalism. But they did not "found" the country. The groups who did better still had a deity belief, but they based their small communities on a better economic foundation.

Commercial enterprise is what drove the country to greatness and when a small percentage decided to rebel against England's control, they had in mind mostly the economic future of the country and a long term plan to set it on an independent path with a new idea of government, which was heavily influenced by the Enlightenment and by those minds set free of archaic thinking because of it.

By that time all sorts of believers and non-believers lived here, but a common thread was independence of the self and individual rights granted simply because humans are sentient beings. Nature or a Creator of some design was the grantor of those rights.

Whichever "granted" human beings those rights as sentient beings, it expects, or doesn't care or even know about, us using our brains to figure stuff out. And as we have figured a lot of stuff out to make life on this planet better, we have a responsibility to our ancestors and a promise to keep to our descendants to not screw it up.

Halting and eliminating devastating diseases and plagues is part of that duty. Cleaning up our pollution is part of that duty. Not blowing ourselves up over territory or deity belief is part of that duty, unless one considers Armageddon to be the desired and proper end of humanity, as the Islamists/Mohammedists do.

You suggested, Sarah, that I do research before I submit myself or any of my family to a doctor's care. What is it that you find out that scares you away from medical care and preventive care?

I am led to seek medical advice because of illness or because I want to prevent a disease, but I do educate myself first. Take Shingles. I know many who have suffered because of them and some who have had the rest of their lives ruined due to the pain and neuropathy that is so bad they consider suicide an option. I would avoid that if I could and so got my vaccination at 55, but since 2017 there has been a better vaccine that works much better and we are on a waiting list to get that.

I am getting my cataracts removed as soon as possible, because they have suddenly gotten much worse and the anxiety of driving is keeping me from feeling competent. I stopped driving at dusk a few years back and must get home before that. I certainly do not drive at night or on rainy days. That is an invasive procedure that involves taking out a natural part of my body and putting something in my body that is not natural. Is that okay with your Christian belief? Are the possible side effects of cataract removal and lens replacement better than moving slowly toward blindness?

We get all our vaccines and keep them up to date and so do our children and grandchildren. We do so because we care about our lives and the lives of others and we want to see an end to devastating childhood diseases that can kill and often cripple for life those who are unfortunate enough to contract them in their full force.

Polio and small pox were the big ones of our youth. Diphtheria, Measles, Tetanus, Pertussis are all so important to guard against with vaccines. Why would anyone risk their life or their child's life by not guarding against these terrible diseases? The risk of death and debilitation is so great and the risk of spreading these diseases throughout a community is so great. So much greater than the slim possibility of side effects. That is the truth. Look at the side effects and weigh them against the terrible risk of contracting a horrible disease that is easily spread.

That is what our leaders throughout recent history have done. When too many people refuse to help, then these diseases return and the fear of them spreading is usually enough to change minds. If none in your family have contracted any of these diseases, then they have been lucky so far and the herd concept has kept them safe. It was known that some people could not risk the side effects for various reasons, but if most were vaccinated, then the weak would be protected.

They are safe because other people felt a duty to prevent outbreaks of child killing diseases by getting their vaccines. You and yours are safe because of the actions of other human beings, who decided to risk any side effects there might be to help eradicate these child killers from the population.

You are welcome.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [rdrcofe] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Hi Chris.

Interesting reply.

Why is it always the fault of the Jews?

It was well reported that Christians were filthy and believed their bodies were so sinful that filth and worse is what they deserved and that somehow this was appeasing God in some twisted way of ignorant understanding.

Those of other religions wanted nothing to do with them. At least we got past that stage.

Why the Jews, though? Why have they been the scapegoats of every era? A rhetorical question mostly. You don't need to work up a treatise...unless you really want to.

Just something that deserves intelligent thought. And that there should be a vaccine for...

Do you have your shingles vaccine, yet? Pneumonia? Got your flu shot? I only hope that humanity never sees a time when plague or influenza runs amok again. Of course, the resulting death toll might appease the fanatic environmentalists.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [jeanne53] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
jeanne: Hi

Why the Jews though?

As a believer, I have a theory. It might not appeal to an atheist but I find it plausible.

God, started His rescue plan for the human race by looking for a human being who could do as they were told, (by God), when instructed. It took God, God knows how many years, until Abraham actually fitted God's purpose by actually 'doing as he was told'. Gen.12:1-4.

God then went one step further and made a sworn promise that He would bless humanity through Abraham and his descendants. Abraham believed God's promise, so God counted Abraham as if he were actually 'righteous', when we all, including God, knew all along he actually was'nt. Rom.4:1-25.

That was at least a start, as far as God was concerned, at putting matters right regarding human ignorance and its effects upon the wellbeing of the creatures under His care and which God infinitely cared about. God being God and infinite and all that.

It rapidly became clear, (or already was omnisciently clear to God all along), that within 430 years or so it would become necessary for God to spell out rather more obviously what we had previously been getting wrong about Him and how we should behave toward one another and God. (We are always very slow to learn).

So God set out the Big 10 Rules of the game and others added some more under inspiration from Him to set some boundaries on what should be acceptable human conduct. This was an educational experiment intended by God to provide one particular 'chosen' nation with the opportunity to be an example of a perfect society, which would then be so obviously superior in all respects, that every other nation would fall over themselves to copy it and obtain for themselves the strikingly obvious benefits that such a regulated society would eventually demonstrate.

Human nature, being what it is, repeatedly screwed up God's plans and frustrated his intended objective.It takes two to tango and though God always keeps His promises, we human beings are not so good at keeping either our promises to God or to each other. In fact we stink at it. So did the Israelites. Give a human being privelidge with obligation and they will nearly always want more privelidge and avoid as much obligation as possible.

The nations then consistently witnessed Israel, (the privellidged, God Chosen Nation), abusing its privelidged blessings while ignoring its obligations, like a selfish and spoilt child. Such is the normal human condition.

Far from being understanding about this, as any responsible adult might at the fractious, undisciplined behaviour of a spoilt infant, the 'less blessed' nations became infantilely 'jealous' of Israel's blessings and contemptuous of its arrogant sense of entitlement, backed up by its perceived Deity Superiority complex.

Isreal was then taken into captivity and eventually 'dispersed among the nations', leaving only the tribes of Judah and Levi arround Jerusalem, in the 'Promised Land'. Only a short time later they too were taken off to Babylon, after spectacularly renaging on their obligations to God, Jerusalem was then destroyed and only a few of the tribes of Judah (Jews) and Levi (Priests), returned later on. About 400 years after that, Jesus turned up to sort the mess out, 'as God' or 'for God' and 'for us', 'once and for all'. Heb.10:1-10.

Ever since though, the underprivelidged have always envied the privelidged, particularly when the privelidged are undeserving of their privelidges and are ignoring their obligations.

The same principles apply to believing 'Christians' and many of the nonbelieving. There is an undercurrent of resentment against those who claim God as their Father and Jesus as their Savior yet are unwilling to cut others any slack or forgive trespassers who tread on their dreams of salvation privelidge.

We 'believers' are immensely privelidged by God. He counts us as 'righteous' when we know full well, (as do others) we are naturally undeserving of it. We therefore have the obligation to live up to God's expectations of us and forgive those who are ignorant of His love for them.
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In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Mar 7, 2019, 5:27 AM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Chris-

Well...

Seems Biblically sound, "replies the atheist." And certainly helps explain the belief of others that Jews feel they are superior and more righteous, yet also proud in their determination to seek control over others and power in governments via sneaky means, including using vast sums of ill-gained monies and causing disease.

Convoluted history of God and its relationship with its ultimate creation. But, I guess creator deities have plenty of time.

Thanks.

I always thought the dominant religion of Christianity was just upset that Jews didn't fall in line, and also blame them for the death of their savior. Somebody had to cause the death of Jesus, so the Jews who didn't accept him as the son of God might as well bear the blame forever.

Everything about the "People of the Book," the followers of the Abrahamic religions, seems convoluted to those of us who don't accept the existence of deities. Well, though, not more than all other deity beliefs, I guess. It is just that these three are dominant in the current era.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [praizeop2] Vaccines and autism... In reply to
Against my better judgement, I am placing a URL for a site at icandecide.com. It is a page that has a white paper on vaccines, specifically calling attention to the website's belief that people have been and are being lied to about various subjects.

If you are afraid of vaccines, then this will only bolster your decision to keep from having one or getting them for your children.

If you accept that vaccines have a valuable place in modern history and help protect humanity from the ravages of terrible diseases, then this probably won't make much difference in how you feel. Everything in modern science and technology comes at a cost and has altered human beings already in ways we might not even know about. And our future is being altered now.

All medicinal therapies come with some risk and all advances to make life better come with more. It is the weighing of those risks against the risks of doing nothing to act in a preventative manner or in a therapeutic manner, that is the responsibility of the individual and the expert with whom the person places trust and even their deity if they believe in one who is there to help guide them.

Of course, we each attempt to "choose wisely" but things don't always work out. Still, it is better to consider before acting and act after informing ourselves to all benefits and risks.

And so, here is the URL:

https://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/whitepapers/VaccineSafety-Version-1.0-October-2-2017.pdf
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."