I am having a difficulty evangelizing lost souls because people tell me they simply cannot become a TRUE Christian because they cannot stop masturbating.



This is a serious problem because I have met "believers" who have fallen away from Christ because they have stuggled with pornography and masturbation and have not overcome this problem and I am hearing that ALL christians masturbate after MANY years of SINCERE desires to quit. I have also met many "christians' who say they have stoped masturbating and they have lied about it because they don't want their brothers and sisters to know they sin in this area. What are we to do when about 90% of the christian community still mastrurbates and 90% of christian men are involved with internet pornography.

 eural (Eural Jones)



This should not be quite such a problem if one accepts that most people ‘do it’ at least sometimes in their life. The Biblical answer is ‘If your right hand (the one that most people, even Pharisees and law keepers use), causes you to sin, cut it off, it is better to enter heaven with one hand than to go to hell with two. I’m sure Jesus knew how common the practice is among men, (and quite a lot of women too).



Now if we look at what Jesus has said a little less literally we notice that he is actually linking this teaching about ‘hands that make us sin’, (an impossibility unless your hand controls you and tells you what to do), links his teaching to our common tendency to focus our criticism upon others while apparently ‘excusing’ ourselves.



Is it possible that Jesus was saying.



. . . . ‘You self righteous people who condemn sin in others should take a look at your own, (right hand habits), sin, and start cutting other people as much slack as you cut for yourselves, when you give in to temptation. I’m not condoning the habit but just pointing out to you ‘really religious types’ that there might be some hypocrisy going on in even you so either start tolerating sin in other people the way you tolerate certain behaviour in yourself, or start actually treating yourself, (your own right hand), the way you are treating other people, (i.e. cutting them off and metaphorically throwing them away). . . . .'



This ties in neatly with the concept outlined by Jesus elsewhere, ‘Forgive us our trespasses, sins, bad habits, lack of self control, pursuit of personal pleasure etc as or to the same degree as, we forgive those who sin against us.



Hopefully then it should be possible to get the people we evangelise to see not only the potential for a life better lived and less controlled by our own passions and selfish desires, (albeit we may stumble now and again, but that should serve to show us we are not self sufficiently righteous yet), but more importantly a life lived out with a more ‘gracious and tolerant attitude’ towards others who may have less self control than ourselves or who might fail in different areas of morality than we do.



Love Chris.

Masturbation is a fact of life - how else is one able to release sexual tension/frustration if one doesn't have a partner to help? Sure, the thought process leading to/during it is caused by sin, but that is also a fact of life, and I think there are worse things than self-pleasuring to keep one out of heaven.

I agree: It is more likely that a condemnatory attitude to others will land us in the wrong place or keep us out of heaven. And the double whammy is hypocricy, condemning others while at the same time excusing ourselves.



Love Chris.

Sin is sin, be it condemnation or lust.

praizeop2 (PRAIZEOP2)



You wrote:[color blue]Sin is sin, be it condemnation or lust.



While this is of course true, envy, hypocrisy and covetousness were strongly admonished by Jesus, but I can’t find any scriptural reference to him condemning masturbation or homosexuality. I guess that might give some insight into his priorities.



It seems to me that greed, envy and hypocrisy are at least as prevalent as masturbation but don’t get anything like as much condemnation in a society that seems modelled on them.



I think, after all, perhaps it does make you blind.



Love Chris.

Eural,



1. There is no such thing as a TRUE Christian. You are either a Christian or you are not a Christian.



2. No one becomes a Christian after they have given up all sin. One becomes a Christian and then the Holy Spirit will help you get rid of sin in your life.



3. When anyone tell me 90 % of all Christians do something, then it makes me think they may be trying to make themselves feel better. Its the old excuse, "Everyone else is doing it..."



Peter

ekansboa (St Peter)
<BR>
<BR>You wrote:<FONT COLOR="blue">Its the old excuse, "Everyone else is doing it..." </FONT>
<BR>
<BR>I think the figures relate to The Kinsey Report evidence, which is an extrapolation on a survey done in the USA back in the 1950'-60's.
<BR>
<BR>Presumably the percentage remains about the same. Who knows perhaps it's more than 90% because of the number that lied and denied ever doing it. Of course lying we know is a sin so I would guess that 100% of us still do that sometimes.
<BR>
<BR>Actually the really unhealthy attitude is the one that denies ever 'sinning', (when one knows one actually does), but then to get relief from the guilt one spends a whole lot of time 'condemning others' for the very same things one does oneself.
<BR>
<BR>The Pharisees were really good at this 'religious' game but Jesus was wise to their hypocrisy and told them so on many an occasion.
<BR>
<BR>If 'normal' means most people do it, then I guess 'onanism' is normal. Just like greed, lust, envy, anger, lying, gossiping, bearing false witness and pride. All pretty common - so 'normal' i.e. 'the norm' for human beings.
<BR>
<BR>Christians are called to be 'ab-normal', to refuse to conform to the 'world', to behave differently.
<BR>
<BR>If someone cannot ultimately control his / her urge for self gratification, at least they can avoid complicating the issue with additional hypocrisy by being determined to be tolerant of others who are weak and lack self control.
<BR>
<BR>What the church lacks is not 'perfectly sinless believers' but 'understanding, non-judgmental, self controlled, believers', who do not spend their time being obsessed with what 'sins' other folks in the congregation <B>might</B> be getting up to behind closed doors.
<BR>
<BR>Love Chris.

Being a follower of Jesus does not make you less prone to sin. For all have sinned and have fallen short of His glory. We want to try to follow Jesus. There is not magic pill to keep one from sinning. There is just forgivness if we ask, and power not of our own that defeats sin in our lives. In order to approach such a problem one has to be honest with ourselvie and seek help both in prayer and from other followers of His. Hidding such a problem only enables it to presist. This is not a problem that many are willing to talk about or even admit it is a problem. Better to sweep it under a rug. Here is a site that talks about such issues openly and provide help http://xxxchurch.com/07/. It is only when we addmit there is a problem that affects many good people that follower Jesus can we hope to turn such a tide. The two Great Commandments: Love God with all your heart and your nieghbor as your self. So this mean we don't condeme our friends and neighbors but we help them in love. The author of this is right, He can't stop by himself or herself. He need Divine help. For we ourselves do nothing that is good, it is only through Jesus that we do good. It is only by His Grace, Mercy, Love, and Justic that He sets the sinner free. We are not strong enough on our own to face any battle or defeat sin.

jmromano (Josemar Romano)



You wrote: It may be comforting to know that most christians mastrubate, but this doesn't mean we would no longer try to suppress the urge to do it because we are "no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness."



I agree. It is also quite common to pick one's nose and eat it, chew one's finger nails and toe nails, belch and fart in the bath and leave hairs in the sink for other people to clean up. All unpleasant habits and (to judge from general opinion), quite common even amongst 'believers'.



I like to know why 'it' is considered more sinful, than, say, jumping the queue for coffee after service or failing to control your temper and insulting other people, (sometimes the ones close to us, we say we love).



All this seems to me to smack of hypocrisy and double standard, which is the leaven of the Pharisees and far more spiritually corrosive than some self pleasuring in private.



Anything taken to excess is unhealthy and this like anything else can have unhealthy effects if taken to excess.



Abstinence is not possible for many people, but restraint is possible for all. Hypocrisy, (condemning others for what we have done ourselves), is far worse conduct, because it affects other people and presents a lie about onself to the world and God, who knows everything.



Love Chris.

God is always be a merciful and forgiving God that is God nature. Forgiving God but.... in other hand God put a boundaries and law, rules, and regulation that we need to follow. Our choice to make that decision. No one can make that decision. Just you and I.



If we know the limit and boundaries. Your in the safe side. God bless.

[quote]I am having a difficulty evangelizing lost souls because people tell me they simply cannot become a TRUE Christian because they cannot stop masturbating . . . What are we to do when about 90% of the christian community still mastrurbates and 90% of christian men are involved with internet pornography.[quote]



Your post is quite old, so I am not sure a reply is in order, but I'll give it a go anyway. This is certainly a controversial topic to be sure, but this forum thread is not the place to go into the topic of masterbation and pornography per se, since it is along the lines of evangelism. But your post has me puzzled for a couple of reasons. First, I am uncertain as to why you are having difficulty evangelizing lost souls because of activities that other people are participating in? Our call to fulfill the Great Commission is not contingent upon the activities of others but upon our obedience to Jesus Christ. In other words, no matter what other Christians are doing, that should not affect your sharing the gospel with the lost. It is not our job to save anyone...it is our job to introduce them to Jesus and allow Him to do the saving.



The second thing I found interesting is your question about what we are to do. Well, as mentioned above, we are to share Jesus with the lost, no matter what our other brothers and sisters are doing or not doing. And I believe that we should be doing what Apostle Paul recommended, which is lifting up in prayer those weaker brothers and sisters in the Lord so that the Holy Spirit can lead them to a place of repentance as needed so that they can find reconciliation with God. We are to love one another, pray for each other, and bear each other burdens, but it is up to the Holy Spirit to place conviction in each heart regarding sin.



God bless you as you seek the Lord's guidance.



Lynn

Hi Lynn,



This thread may be an old thread but your comments are spot on.



Your brother in Christ,

Doc

Where did you get the idea that masturbation (male or female) is a sin? If one masturbates while having lustful thoughts it is the lust that is sinful not the act of masturbating. Masturbation is not addressed anywhere in the Bible although some have twisted the living daylights out of some verses to try to make it fit.

Good grief! It is old isn't it? I should have looked at the dates.

It is never a problem to resurrect old forums. Probably someone needs to read it. :) Although this thread is posted under evangelistic methods, A discussion of sexual practices might better be posted under Advice or ?
Feel free to look through the Forums and respond to whatever you like. The "old" topics never really become outdated.
Blessings ~ Sarah

Chaplainbob :

Good grief! It is old isn't it?

Yep! That's what I think to myself when I look at my reflection in the morning.

This thread had great promise but somehow just petered out. I guess the main point was addressed very ably by the poster who pointed out that it is not our responsibility to convict others of sin. That is the Holy Spirit's mandate and The Spirit needs no help from us. It is very much the other way round.

The inference that the motive for evangelism should be to get people to 'straighten up and fly right' is to 'put the cart before the horse'. People just 'can't' straighten up or even crawl until they have been regenerated. It is then sometimes a long slow process of learning how to live 'according to The Spirit' which characterizes the process of 'sanctification' in the life of the believer. Learning to forgive out of gratitude for God's forgiveness of us.

I see preaching the Gospel to be the business of 'sharing the good fortune of, learning of and believing in, God's amazing forgiveness', with others who, so far, have had no personal experience of it.

God is Gracious and forbearing. Most sins can be overcome eventually. God is not in that much of a hurry to rid us of sins which cause no harm to others. If something is really a problem to us then no matter how many times we may fall, God will pick us up and dust us down, as long as we are honest about it and cut others some slack when they sin against us.

I sometimes wonder if that principle was being hinted at when Jesus said. "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off". He well knew that no sane person would do that or for that matter, believe that their hand could cause them to sin, as if their hand had more control over them than their reasoning mind had over their hand.

The logic then proceeds: If you very sensibly cut yourself some slack by refusing to punish your hand for it's occasional misdemeanors, you should surely forgive others theirs. Otherwise you could be accused of adopting double standards. "The leaven of the Pharisees."

Regards Chris.

I have a hard time believing that back in '07 when Mr. Jones posted this that he was told what he said. Porn is a problem with some Christian men but certainly not 90%. However one can be delivered from that addiction. As for masturbation (male or female) one needs to separate the act from any lust during the act. The Bible is clear concerning lust being sinful but the act is not addressed in Scripture. I find it interesting that to many Christians find any sexual sin or perceived sexual sin is far worse than any other sin.

chaplainbob :

You are right. All sin is sin but it has all been dealt with on the cross. Christians are victims of social programming just like anyone else. Christians are as capable also of projecting their own failure onto others in the form of 'scapegoating', (The major fault of the Pharisees).

There are two main instinctive driving forces behind all living things. Survival and procreation. Regenerate believers should realize that civilized behavior requires restraint and redirection aright of our baser instincts. That is what the process of 'sanctification' is all about.

Justification, (a gift from God) is what 'saves' us. Sanctification, (a progressive work of the Holy Spirit), is what restores and improves us to be in the image once more of our redeemer.

Being 'childlike' is not the same as being 'childish' and maturity of character comes from the practice of self discipline and restraint.

Lust is a corrosive emotion which needs to be resisted. Sexual arousal, on the other hand, is a natural instinct that God has clearly linked sensually with pleasure. Being sexually aroused is not sinful unless it is demonstrably miss directed and focused lustfully and inappropriately. Addiction to porn is like any other addiction, 'slavery to an outside entity'. People who are addicted to porn need to admit their 'weakness' and get some 'backbone' to resist with.

Regards Chris.

Amen Chris.