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Thought of the day

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Thought of the day
(apologies if you have seen this elsewhere...)



If the origin of the universe is the Big Bang, then what is the origin of the Big Bang??



something always has to start from something else...
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Awesome thought. Then we could think about the we came from monkey thought. If we came from the monkeys then were did the monkeys come from.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
The above-asked question appeared in a regular feature in the 'TODAY' section of my city's daily newspaper http://thewest.com.au called BURNING QUESTIONS, in which readers send in certain questions which other readers reply to - obviously So the burning question as to the origin of the Big Bang appeared a couple of weeks ago, and the following is one of three possible answers as put forth by readers:



Events immediately following the Big Bang are known as Planck time. The laws of science, even quantum physics, fail. There are three cosmogenic paradoxes: events near the beginning of time must have been caused by a prior event, so there is no beginning. You cannot get something from nothing. The energy of the universe must have originated from a previous system, and that from another system, and so on. The Big Bang may have been the result of the collapse of a previous universe.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Possible answer #2:



The vacuum of space is composed of quantum foam, incorporating the uncertainty principle. From the vacuum of space, particles and anti-particles can fleetingly appear and disappear from the very smallest pieces of space and perhaps annihilate one another continuously, but randomly, all the time. The Big Bang, under this model, originated as the simultaneous emission of zillions of particles from the quantum foam with particles considerably more prevalent than anti-particles. This still leaves open the question: Did God or a creator make the quantum foam?



(There is no indication if the writer of this post is someone HIGH UP in the scienterrific professorial ladder... )
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Possible answer #3:



If we accept that the physical laws that we know today have never changed, we must accept that every physical occurrence, including the first appearance of matter, requires a set of conditions. The only conditions existing when there was no matter were the absolute absence of matter, gravity and energy and it seems they enabled matter to come into being. These conditions must have existed an infinite time ago and over infinite distance, so the universe must be infinitely old and of infinite extent.



So what do you think?
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
(quote) The big bang may have been the result of the collapse of a previous universe (quote)

Ok so if the big bang was the result of the collapse of a previous universe where did that previous universe come from?
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
(quote)The Big Bang, under this model, originated as the simultaneous emission of zillions of particles from the quantum foam with particles considerably more prevalent than anti-particles.(quote)

Ok so then were did the quantum foam come from?

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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Ok so does anybody else see where this is going or am I the only one. We can say that we were made from the big bang from monkeys and from dinosaurse (yes some people believe we came from dinosaurse and thats why they are gone because we are here). But if we came from these things then where did these things come from? But we can honestly say that we were made from the dust (it says that in the bible) ok so then where did the dust come from? It came from the land (or the earth). Well where did the earth come from? It came from God. Well where did God come from? God didnt come from anything for he was and is and always will be.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
adventistsrock writes:



If the origin of the universe is the Big Bang, then what is the origin of the Big Bang?? Something always has to start from something else...



Hmmm. If the origin of the Universe is God, then what is the origin of God?? After all, something always has to start from something else...



If God escapes this logic by being eternal, then why cannot the Universe be eternal instead?



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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
The bible clearly states that Go was and is and always will be. And another thing it also says that God formed the universe out of nothing.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
If the universe is eternal, isn't it a logical extension to conclude that the unverse is all powerful? My reasoning is that if there were no God to create everything, the universe would necessarily have this power (i.e. evolution).



Thus the universe would be in the position of GOD5.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
If the universe is eternal, isn't it a logical extension to conclude that the universe is all powerful? My reasoning is that if there were no God to create everything, the universe would necessarily have this power (i.e. evolution).



Thus the universe would be in the position of GOD.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Science does not "fail." It merely expplains how things work and it's pretty accurate in that. What fails are theories that exlude God as the originator of all things. No matter what process you consider, it had to start somewhere. Nothing is perpetual. Even if you say the big bang came from the exploding of matter from a black hole of another universe (one current theory), that other universe had to start somewhere.



You know, most scientists are Christians. In the filed of astronomy for instance, the only profession that has more Christians than astronomers is the ministry. It's only a few idiot scientists that deny the existence of God and put forth theories of order out chaos naturally occuring and other such fiffle-faddle.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
I must say I have to agree with Paul on this one !

Love the thought Paul short and sweet and to the point !



Sheila056
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Tanya



You wrote:
The bible clearly states that Go(d) was and is and always will be. And another thing it also says that God formed the universe out of nothing.




Actually the Bible does not say God formed the universe out of nothing. That comes from the Apocrapha somewhere. The ancient Hebrews did not have a concept of the world being made from nothing. The concept was that God started to create from an existing formlesss void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Scientists, it seems, have now got round to calling it quantum foam.



By the way human beings have never been thought to have come from monkeys. The concept (if it be true), is that monkeys, apes etc. and ourselves have somewhere in our common distant past an ancestor from which all primates have evolved. This original primative distant ancestor would have long ago become extinct. There may have also been more than one race of man of which there may be fossil examples (Neanderthal, for instance), but Homo Sapiens may have driven them to extinction or interbred and genetically overwhelmed them. All theory of course but with ever growing fossil evidence to support the idea. But no true and irrefutable 'missing link' has yet turned up.



It's true that the bible says God was and is and always will be, but that statement can not be proved, it necesarily has to be aprehended by faith. Without faith though, even scientists can't get anywhere, because every theory starts with a premise and a premise is all about faith. Science is about demonstrating by experimental and other evidence, that a premise is false or true. By and large evolutionary theory seems to be supported by both archeological evidence, (fossils) and experiment (the way bacteria and virus's adapt and mutate under hostile or modifying evolutionary pressure). i.e. vaccines and antibiotics. Flu virus might even evolve one day into some super virus no longer identifiable as flue. Some might have done already hence the scare recently in China and the east with chicken flue.



This however does not in any way prove the NON existance of God, nor can it ever do so. All it might do is modify the sometimes simplistic and literal way some scripture is interpreted.



I have already pointed out that Genesis did NOT make the mistake of saying God made everything out of NOTHING. He made it out of the formless deep. I like the poetry of that even better than Quantum Foam. Don't you? Genesis also does not entirely count out the possibility that mankind evolved from lower creatures.Ch.1 v25 says God made cattle and beasts (presumably this would have included our common ancestor of the primates. Ch.1v26 then says 'Let us make man in our image' It could mean that the creature 'man' already existed at that point in time but was not in God's image. i.e. was only still a beast, not a sentient being with the power of reason and morals. God may have chosen 'man' to rise above the other creatures. God made this creature little less than himself and crowned it with glory and honour. It is such a shame that it has since gone and messed up the world so badly. Thank God for Jesus and science. He might save the world from us yet.



Love Chris.

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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
I believe this question “Where did the Big Bang originate from” was addressed to those who don’t believe the Christian God created the universe, but in the Big Bang theory instead. Many of the Christians claim that their God created the universe and will use the bible to back that up, but the bible claims are useless to those who don’t believe in God. I guess different religious people will have different ideas of how everything got started according to their religion, but I think the most accurate answer is that nobody knows. Lots of people may think they know the answer, but when it comes down to it, nobody can prove their theories are correct.



Peace

Ken

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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Hello fhr



Now that would be a pretty good answer for those who believe in YOUR God, but for those of us who don't, that sounds like nothing more than a cop-out! any religion can say that! and religious folk often resort to that type of answer when approached with questions they can't answer



Peace

Ken
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
On a previous post zapmeister said:



<< If God escapes this logic by being eternal, then why cannot the Universe be eternal instead?>>



All I can say is “Very good point!”



To which inhissteps replied:



<<If the universe is eternal, isn't it a logical extension to conclude that the unverse is all powerful? My reasoning is that if there were no God to create everything, the universe would necessarily have this power (i.e. evolution). >>



Wrong! Just because something is eternal, does not make it powerful or God. Being eternal means just one thing, eternal.



Peace

Ken
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Hello FHR



Don’t get me wrong, I was not upset! When I said your answer sounds like a cop-out, I was simply being sincere. Often when debating with (usually Christian) religious folk, when approached with a question they can’t answer, they will say something like “God has a reason for all things even if we don’t know what they are” or my favorite “God sees the big picture, we can’t” I have heard these excuses/explanations plenty of times, and to me it sounds like a cop-out. I wasn’t saying anything out of anger, I was just being honest.



Peace

Ken

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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
fhr



Quoting you:
God does not discuss with us anything prior HIS holy scriptural writings. If he wants us to know about these things that happened prior before the bible was written he will tell us when we see HIM face to face.




I guess I have to agree with your point here. God has generally restricted himself to answering only those questions which are relevant to our salvation and the general spiritual welfare of the human race.



The Bible has not been much help in the field of medical discoveries, (though one has to say there have been many people of 'faith' which have pushed the frontiers of human understanding in medicine along with others whose 'faith' was only in medicine alone). The Bible does contain some clues as to what is good hygiene though. It is ironic that because of their advanced rules of hygene the Jews in Europe during the great plagues were relatively unscathed, this caused the Christians to attack and kill them, because they thought the Jews, (not dying of the plague), proved that they were causing it. Another unfortunate case of 'faith' led by ignorance opposing truth. The result being injustice. So limiting our understanding to only what is written in the Bible is just plain stupid and God does not approve of stupidity.



The Bible does not contain comprehensive information to much other than SIN and SALVATION. In those two key subjects though I believe it to be supreemly inspired. On most other subjects, God expects us to search elsewhere to find answers to our problems. Instead of pleading, praying, whining or grovelling to him to fix things and make life better, we should be studying, striving, seeking and learning wherever there is information to be found, rather than being content to wallow in our ignorance and blame him for not answering.



'Greater things than I have done,' said Jesus, 'You will do, because I GO and leave you to get on with it.



On the subject of Big Bang Theory, I don't see why God couldn't have used the Big Bang to start everything. 'Let there be light' seems quite poetic but really only ammounts to being the same as 'BANG' on a cosmic scale. Doesn't it?



Love Chris.

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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
God is eternal because He is the sovereign God. We can trust He is eternal because He said so in His Word, and we know that God cannot lie. But of course, that answer would not convince someone who does not believe in the Bible as the Word of God. So consider this:



We know the universe is not eternal because it is constantly expanding (which, by the way, is mentioned in Scripture -- see Psalms 104:2). If the universe were eternal, then it would not be expanding. The universe expanding tells us two things: Number one, that it had a beginning. And number two, scientists have discovered that the universe will eventually burn itself out (meaning it will have an end). So therefore, science itself has concluded what God told us all along, that the universe is expanding. It is not eternal.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
And Chris, I would ask you to please continue searching the Scriptures. Your Bible seems to only have a few books in it, if you can make the claim that the Bible contains no comprehensive information to much other than sin and salvation. Please forgive the facetiousness, but that's an unwarranted claim.



The fact is, Scripture is to be our final authority on all matters, yes on sin and salvation, but also on the day to day decisions we make. The reason for this is because the Bible is God's Holy Word. He is not going to leave it up to sinful, fallible humans to decide how to live.



The Bible tells us "thou shalt not murder." What needs to be more comprehensive about it? We are not to take the life of another individual. To do so is to forfeit our own right to live (hence, capital punishment is also Biblical).



We are not to engage in sexual promiscuity. The Bible is quite clear that the only holy form of sexual union is that between one man and one woman, in the bonds of holy matrimony. Any other form of sexual intimacy is wrong (adulerty, homosexuality, beastiality, fornication, etc.).



We are to avoid slander and lying.



The bottom line is, Chris, I really do applaud your seeker's heart. But the thing is, you need to spend more time seeking inside Scripture than relying on outside sources as your guide. Science and Scripture should never conflict. In fact, if science ever conflicts with Scripture, then science is in error, and not Scripture. Most recent discoveries in science have been contained in Scripture all along. In fact, I will probably made a new thread in this forum to discuss all of them.



I'm not saying that seeking other sources is wrong. I'm just saying to be very careful, because Scripture is always in the right. It's God's Holy Word, and God is perfect. So He cannot lie nor can He be in error.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
Oops! Sorry, Chris, I guess I kind of misunderstood you, as most of my examples do pertain to salvation and sin.



But anyway, I would just like to assure you that the Bible is as much as book of science as it is a book of holy living. And to reiterate, I will post in this forum about all the scientific knowledge contained in the Bible (most of which have been recent discoveries by humans).



Peace,



Clinton
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
lyricalpoet2005 (Clinton Wilcox): Hi

You humbly admitted:Oops! Sorry, Chris, I guess I kind of misunderstood you, as most of my examples do pertain to salvation and sin.



I have to admit I was going to mention that. But you beat me to it. You saved me from myself there and helped me rise above my argumentative tendencies. Thank you.



I think you will find if you study the bible extensively that it is both profoundly spiritually accurate but also reflects the scientific understanding,(at their time), of the people who God inspired to write it. A progression of increasing scientific understanding can be traced from Genesis through to revelation. Early Books in scripture (like Job for instance) assumes a very different scientific world view than our own, (us being able to view it from space now). You are surely not saying that we 'HAVE' to unlearn all we have learned 'outside' of scripture, because what the bible says is 'right' and what we see from space of our own planet is 'wrong'.



Love Chris.
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Re: Thought of the day In reply to
If there was a 'big bang', where did it come from? also, where's the dust from the 'big bang'? And why isn't the matter in space evenly distributed? there is large amounts of matter...then vast emptiness, then more matter, which we call "galaxys".

Also, some of the dust from the b b would be in space...therefore there should be a ton of dust on the moon, from moving through space for "millions of years". Taking this into consideration, i've heard that NASA actually built the moon landing apparatus several feet higher than neccessary, because they thought it would sink into all the moon dust! However, as we know, this was not the case. There was obviously no enough dust to support any notion of this 'big bang' theory.



(if you've heard this before, my apologies Some of this info/facts came from Dr. Kent Hovind's series of 7 videos on creationism)