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Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day...

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Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day...
This topic is also in Atheist Debate.



<<Samhain, or summer's end, is the original Halloween that comes from Celtic culture, David Andrews said. After sunset each Oct. 31, villagers would celebrate their harvest with a festival and the end of another year.>>



Explain to this atheist just how Holloween is offensive to christians, except that it is another religion's holy day, just like Yom Kippur is another religion's holy day, and St. Valentine's Day is another religion's day made special in our society? Since it is not about Satan worship, just what makes Halloween a source of contention?



<<The biggest misconception about Wicca -- the largest religion under Paganism -- is that its followers worship the devil.



"Most pagans don't acknowledge Satan as an actual being," said the Rev. David Andrews of the Church of Eclectic Pagan Fellowship. "Those that recognize him as a deity are from Christianity.">>



These quotes are from a local newspaper whose front page story is about Wicca and the celebration of Halloween.



I admire the paper for accepting that not all citizens are of one religion, and each person holds their own beliefs as true and blessed to them.



As religions go, Wicca is a really benign one. Spirituality leads its followers to serenity and comfort and lends coping to trying times in their lifes, much like christianity does for its followers.



If anyone is interested in discussing the story, here is the link:



http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051031/NEWS01/510310311/1002







As an atheist, the best part is that I can pick and choose which neat parts of any other religion that I want to enjoy. I don't have to believe to enjoy Christmas and all that surrounds that seasonal holiday, nor do I have to believe in boogeymen to enjoy Halloween.



I had great fun at Easter Egg Hunts with my kids, and the Tooth Fairy always left silver for those lost teeth which I still keep in my jewelry box. (Gross is what my daughter calls them).



My Jewish friends have often had us over for Passover and Hanukkah, and they just love my Christmas tree which is done in silver and blue.



So many of our holidays come from various sources, legends, countries of origin, archaic religions which predate christianity, and ethnicities of our multicultural country. Kwansa, Mardi Gras, Day of the Dead (what is that date?)



Who are we to declare that any of these special days are evil or offensive to any of us who believe or do not believe?



Perhaps I am truly stupid or am I just wrong...or is something else wrong.....but I am not willing to condone the idea that another person's faith is evil, when that person is not evil, nor does there religion promote evil acts.



Who has all the answers? Not I, and I think not any human being.

And since I do not accept the existence of supernatural deities, I don't think the answer is there....unless some person wants to make it be found there to further some agenda.



Seems to me that one reads in a book what one wants to find there. All open to personal interpretation.



Why do you think I am an atheist? I choose to accept all as worthy of my human love and friendship, and not push some aside as evil because of their spiritual beliefs.



peace and good health to all



Jeanne



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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
Hi Jeanne; I appreciated the article. It is vexing to be consistantly misunderstood. I'm glad this author chose to write using educated resources.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
Why did the Church appropriate Eostre(Easter) another pagan(=rural) festival as Pentecost?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
If it is so innocent, then why do people dress up as vampires and witches and ghosts. What is the purpose of the Jack-o-lantern and why is it called this? Have any forms of witchcraft and the occult and do they still ever perform human sacrifices? Which is holy, the will of God or the will of a human being and if God already knows infinitely more than a human being, why would we try to control things ourselves through will in the first place. And if you don't believe in GOd, how do you suppose that our superintelligent spirits and souls and ultimate design were created? Where do you suppose that the perfect design and flow of things came from, from the nutrients in the soil that we stand on to the breath which we breathe in that sustains us? If a tomato explodes does it make ketchup without a hand to add the other ingredients?



So if you knew that originally on All Hallows eve, now dressed up as a fun little joyful ceremony to celebrate harvest, druids used to sacrifice virgins to this horned God...and leave a jack-o lantern in her place that the house would not be torn apart by evil spirits that would otherwise be sent by them later. And that it is a holiday celebrating the dead when we are a faith based on life and living and also against spiritism by any other spirit than the holy spirit of the creator himself (which God actually does mention in the bible that he has feminine parts but the male is also the more dominant because he is heavier, more protective, etc... grace and mercy are more of the feminine attributes)

well....what do you think? What are some morals that you stand for? Would you stand back and watch someone murder someone because they felt they had a right to because they believed in it?

So if you feel that something is infiltrating your mind, do you not examine yourself and throw it out? So if something is threatening to infiltrate your church body and and poison the minds of your people, as a leader of sorts, would you not banish it?



Well there you go. That is a Christian point of view of the problem with halloween.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
Your post is a little bit rambling ruthannaelijah but I'll try to sort out enough to answer your questions.







If it is so innocent, then why do people dress up as vampires and witches and ghosts.


This came about as a result of the involvement of Christians. Originally the Celts would dress up as animal spirits. Only after Christianity turned a holiday of joy into a night of fear did the scary costumes occur.







What is the purpose of the Jack-o-lantern and why is it called this?


The Jack-o-lantern is a Christian invention and a Christian story.







Have any forms of witchcraft and the occult and do they still ever perform human sacrifices?


Witches never performed Human sacrifice. We still do not perform Human sacrifice. Once again this is Christian propaganda.







Which is holy, the will of God or the will of a human being and if God already knows infinitely more than a human being, why would we try to control things ourselves through will in the first place. And if you don't believe in GOd, how do you suppose that our superintelligent spirits and souls and ultimate design were created? Where do you suppose that the perfect design and flow of things came from, from the nutrients in the soil that we stand on to the breath which we breathe in that sustains us? If a tomato explodes does it make ketchup without a hand to add the other ingredients?


I'm not really sure what you are trying to say with this. Are you suggesting we are atheists? I believe in God. I love God with all my heart. I serve God with all my being. God shows me a different face that the one you apparently see.







So if you knew that originally on All Hallows eve, now dressed up as a fun little joyful ceremony to celebrate harvest, druids used to sacrifice virgins to this horned God...and leave a jack-o lantern in her place that the house would not be torn apart by evil spirits that would otherwise be sent by them later.


You've been reading too many Jack Chick tracts. This is not historical information. The druids did not go door to door demanding virgins. This is an invention of Christianity. A good example of this is the fact that the Celts did not value virginity. If they did perform human sacrifices, a virgin would be valueless for that purpose. However, Christianity does value virginity in women. Thus the propaganda reflects the values of the people making it up, rather than the people who are being lied about.







well....what do you think? What are some morals that you stand for?


I stand for the only moral that matters. "Harm None"







Would you stand back and watch someone murder someone because they felt they had a right to because they believed in it?


No I would not, which is why I oppose any religion whose scriptures tell the people that believe them that they must kill me.







So if you feel that something is infiltrating your mind, do you not examine yourself and throw it out? So if something is threatening to infiltrate your church body and and poison the minds of your people, as a leader of sorts, would you not banish it?


I havn't the slightest idea what you're trying to say here.







Well there you go. That is a Christian point of view of the problem with halloween.


The problem is not with Halloween. The problem is with a "Christian" point of view which is based on false witness and religious propaganda.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
my point was. The original topic is what do christians have against halloween. Well Halloween is part of the moral ruining poison , and so the church casts it out.



Still it has always involved spiritism..Communing with spirits and the dead. Which is against christian religion.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
celsus (Celsus)



Whoops! Celsus, your slip is showing.



Easter is not Pentecost, neither is Easter a 'Pagan' festival as far as Christians, or converted pagans are concerned.



Celtic spirituality contained within itself many worthy and insightful revelations of divine truth. It also however was riddled with superstition and error of the most serious and depraved kind.



When Christianity came to the Celtic tribes it was adopted slowly as a result of certain tribal chieftains being impressed by the faith and personal strength of character of the first Christian missionaries to them.



Soon Christianity became the mainstream form of spiritual expression of the Celtic peoples, while they still preserved their symbolism, art and culture but reformed (turned away from), human sacrifice to placate the Gods and the supersticious worship of spirits, (turning to), Christ, the resurection, light, peace, heaven etc.



Most of these new concepts were readily taken up and assimiated, even human sacrifice could now be understood by the Celts to have been finally rendered no longer necessary, through Christ's death upon the cross. Resurection was no new idea to the Celts, they believed each day and year was a resurection. The whole of Life was circular to them. There was no division between spiritual and secular, everything was sacred.



The Book of Kells, (The most beautiful illustrated Gospels in the Celtic Language), was produced on Iona an Island off the west coast of Scotland, long before St Augustine (from the Roman Church), set foot in England. They perfectlky illustrate how the truth of the Gospel had transformed Celtic Society while still preserving their tradition, historical roots and identity.



Later even the Roman church decided it was better to 'play up' the positive aspects of Pagan Practices than to try to stamp them out by force. Churches were built on previous Pagan sacred places, not merely to 'displace' the pagans and prevent untoward goins on, but just as much 'out of respect' for the holiness and reverence that was afforded to the places themselves by the Pagans.



I for one would say that this kind of assimilation by education is better than the type of 'evangelisation' employed by the Conquistadores against the South American Indians, whose ritual sacrifices disgusted them so much that they offered them a simple choice. Become a Christian or die horribly.



By the way Pentecost is about 50 days after Easter and Easter happened to fall at roughtly the same time as Passover, and it's spiritual significance was capable of being used to convey the message of the Gospel, so it was in some measure retained, I think.



Love Chris.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
my point was. The original topic is what do christians have against halloween. Well Halloween is part of the moral ruining poison , and so the church casts it out.



Still it has always involved spiritism..Communing with spirits and the dead. Which is against christian religion.




I agree that Christians should not celebrate Halloween, not because it's an "evil" holiday, which it is not, but because it's not a Christian holiday. You should also not celebrate Ramadan, Mohalla, Naw-R˙z, or Seijin-no-hi; not because they are "evil" but because they are the holy days of other religions.



The problem is that some Christians are not content to celebrate their own holy days and leave others to celebrate their holy days in peace. Those Christians seem to want to wipe our holy days from existance, and their tactic of choice seems to be false witness.



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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
seanachie (Seanachie) :

You wrote:You should also not celebrate Ramadan, Mohalla, Naw-R˙z, or Seijin-no-hi; not because they are "evil" but because they are the holy days of other religions.



I'm pretty sure there must be some exclusion clauses here though.



Suppose you were very friendly with a Jewish family. Could you 'celebrate', i.e. attend as an honoured guest and gentlile 'sojourner' with them at Passover. I cannot imagine a higher honour they could afford to me and to decline would be unthinkably uncharitable behaviour for a 'Christian'.



The same would apply to a Hindu family who invited a christian to Divali, to celebrate 'light'. Since Jesus is the 'Light' of the world it would be most appropriate for a 'Christian' to attend.



In Manchester, England,the story goes, the city council (in the misguided notion that it would enhance community integration), tried to ban 'Christmas' and started calling it 'Winterval' instead. Ironically the local Moslem community objected on the grounds that 'If they can re-name Christmas for the Christians, in their own country, against their will, what will they start doing to us if they get away with this. Christmas got reinstated, due partly to Moslem support in the campaign.



As far as is sensible and in the interests of increasing love and understanding I think we should know about and, when invited to, 'celebrate', (within the discipline of 'christian' concience), both our own and other religions festivals.



I don't think I can find an example of Jesus turning down a party invite because he didn't like their religion. Perhaps it was just that he never got invited by the Wiccans of his day.



Love CHris.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
October 31 no matter what you like to call it halloween day of the dead all souls day harvest time did not start out as evil satan and yes he does exist whether you want to believe he does or not took it and twisted it to become evil. Because what God meant for good satan tries and uses it for his evil ways.
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
"satan and yes he does exist whether you want to believe he does or not"



Satan does not exist whether you want to believe he does or not...



Wow, empty religious rhetoric is so versatile
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Re: Samhain, Wicca's Holy Day... In reply to
Witches never performed Human sacrifice. We still do not perform Human sacrifice. Once again this is Christian propaganda.


The statement that witches have never performed human sacrifice is misleading.Witches ie.wiccans...those who follow the teachings of Gerald Gardener may not perform human sacrifices however you do not have any idea what the "witches" of old may have done.For instance there is archeological evidence that infant sacrifices have been performed to at least some of the goddesses that are listed in the "charge of the goddess" if you would take the time to do a little research on the matter.It seems to methat you maybe relying on info you have read written by Gardner.Who it seems may have made up the modern wiccan religion right out of his own head,well with the help of Aleater Crowley that is. Sizable chunks of Gardners "Great Rite" are right out of Crowleys "Liber Al Vel Legis" also the wiccan reed bears quite a resemblance to Crowley's. "An in harm none do as ye wilt" compared to Crowleys "do what thou wilt should be the whole of the law". Doreen Valiente ,a close associate of Gardners is even quoted as saying that the Book Of Shadows was "heavily influenced by Crowley and the O.T.O".I cannot comprehend how wiccans can act as if wicca is all fluff when there is such a vile man behind it all,I was wiccan and quite frankley I could not be like the others ,when i discovered all this I could not just stick my head in the sand and pretend it wasn't there.