The all-in-one Christian Web Site Community - Praize.com
Skip to Content

are men gods?

Quote Reply
are men gods?
I heard a great debate between a Christian and a Mormon on the passage in John 10:30-42, when Jesus quoted from Psalm 82. I guess I'll type it out:



Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.





Jhn 10:31 ¶ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.





Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?





Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.





Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?





Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;





Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?



Here's Psalm 82:



Psa 82:1 ¶ [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.





Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.





Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.





Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.





Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.





Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.





Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.





Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



Basically, the Mormon used Psalm 82 to support his claim that there are many gods. (vs 1) He stated that the word for gods was the word hebrew word elohim, which was used in Gen.1:1

Note* this guy is a prof. at BYU (a LDS college), so he is a good representation for the mormons.



The Christian was apologist James White, and he noted that the word elohim was also translated ruler.



anyways, i just wanted to spark some discussion and see if anybody has any good viewpoints on this verse.

this debate can be found on aomin.org







Quote Reply
Re: [bobstateman] are men gods? In reply to
We are the spirit children of God, as explained in the Bible:

"...shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9)
"Forasmuch than as we are the offspring of God,..." (Acts 17:28-29)
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)
"The itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together." (Romans 8:16-17)
"He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32)

If we pass the test of earth life, we will be Gods, also, being joint heirs with Christ.
Quote Reply
Re: [fbfgc] are men gods? In reply to
Hi fbfgc: Welcome to Praize.

In as much as all human beings, male and female are 'made in the image of God', (i.e. have the spirit of God breathed into them at conception), they are 'like unto Gods' but not actually gods themselves. Only potentially so.

Once redeemed, regenerate and living under subjection to God they have authority (through obedience to Jesus Christ) which makes them potentially capable of doing the things that He did, and even greater, if granted the faith, through God's grace, to do God's will on earth, as Jesus did.

Regards Chris.
Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Mar 7, 2015, 3:54 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [fbfgc] are men gods? In reply to
 
[ If we pass the test of earth life, we will be Gods, also, being joint heirs with Christ. ]

fbfgc, Can you please give me more information on your own personal thoughts on this? I have heard others say that we are/will be gods (Gods?). I understand the words, but seem to struggle getting my spirit agreeing with it. I'm thinking it is perhaps that I don't understand or can't get a picture of the "Gods" you are talking about. And also I wonder if perhaps it should be small "g" (gods) rather than capital "G" (Gods)?

Thanks,
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] are men gods? In reply to
  Most people do not understand who God is or what his purposes are or what is the organization of his kingdom. Most christian churches have a doctrine of a trinity, which is quickly proved false in the Bible. Jesus, who is Jehovah, prays to, and does the will of, his Father, Elohim. and both are assisted by the Holy Ghost. These are three distinct beings, which appeared separately at the baptism of Jesus. In the Council in Heaven, before the world was, Jesus, our elder brother, urged the Father's plan to create an earth for the testing of His children. Satan, our elder brother, put forward his own plan. to save everyone, but without agency, and that he would receive the glory. That would thwart the basic part of the Plan of Happiness (or Salvation), which is agency for man to choose for himself.
We are given the scriptures and prophets to guide us, and we are to choose to obey Heavenly Father and sacrifice to Him a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We show our Father that we are sincere and repentant by doing what He would do and by emulating Him. We then prove ourselves worthy to be reunited with Him again and to lead the kind of life He leads, which is Eternal Life, not just immortality. As we would possibly be joint heirs with Christ, we would become Gods, ourselves, probably after much more instruction. God has promised us everything He has, and that would be Godhood.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians that there were three degrees of glory to which men go after death and judgement. The highest glory is the Celestial Kingdom, where God lives. The other, lesser, kingdoms are for those who do not merit Godhood, but will be far more glorious than earth. The organization of God's kingdom is the family. He has required of us to be married to be able to reach the Celestial Kingdom. Therefore, God is married, also, and we have a Heavenly Mother, who, like earth mothers, probably does most of the work and gets little publicity. We are their spirit children. We were "sent away to college" to learn how to live on our own, to have experience and be tested. God has stated,"For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man".
As we prove ourselves a little, God bestows upon us His authority to work in His behalf. That is the Priesthood, and He wants all men to have it. In Exodus 10:6 it is written, "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." The priesthood is passed from one man to another, by the laying on of hands, by one who has that authority, in an unbroken chain, from Jesus Christ to today.
These are parts of my understanding, as confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit and which I testify of, in the name of Jesus Christ. I could go on forever.
Quote Reply
Re: [fbfgc] are men gods? In reply to
fbfgc: Hi:

Most people do not understand who God is or what his purposes are.

A very perceptive insight. You are so right! (About that, anyway).

What puzzles me though is, after making such a profoundly insightful statement, you then go on to contradict it by offering so much supposedly unfathomable information about God and his purposes as if you are certain your words must be unfailingly true.

Are we supposed to assume that you do not include yourself among the 'most people' you mention in your introductory sentence?

You quote the following sentence as the words of God.. . . . . . For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man . . . . May we have the Biblical reference for this statement please?

I have never come across these words in the scriptures. Perhaps I've missed something.

I think I know from where and from whom it actually comes though, but apparently the original is said to have vanished.

Regards Chris.
Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Mar 10, 2015, 3:30 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [rdrcofe] are men gods? In reply to
Chris,
I made statements concerning the purposes of God that are found in scripture that has been given, in addition to the Bible. The statement, "For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man", is found in The Pearl of Great Price, The Book of Moses 1:39. This brings up the subject of scriptures. To Joseph Smith was given the gold plates which became known as The Book of Mormon, in honor of the prophet who organized them. Joseph was also given manuscripts which became known as The Pearl of Great Price. Joseph Smith and other modern prophets recorded God's communication with them in The Doctrine and Covenants.
All of these new scriptures and the Bible can be found together in one volume, known as a Quadruple Combination, or a Quad. This volume is the fulfillment of the prophesy in Ezekiel 37:16-20. "Sticks" in those days were scrolls, wrapped around spindles, or sticks. The stick of Judah is the Bible. Since the Book of Mormon people were all from the house of Joseph, the Book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph. Verse 17 says,"And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand", and so, I can hold them in one hand!
In Isaiah 29:1-4,11-12, he talks about Jerusalem's destruction, and says in verse 4, "And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust". And, so, did the golden plates come out of the ground where they had been buried 1200 years before. In verses 11 and 12 it prophesies the exact words spoken by a Columbia University professor when shown characters from the Book of Mormon, and the fact that Joseph was unlearned and had only a second grade education.
In john 10:16, Jesus says, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd". These are the people in the Americas who recorded in the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon was begun by a prophet who left Jerusalem just before its destruction, and his descendant buried the plates in the ground, and as an angel, directed Joseph Smith to find them and protect them. The book contains many verses, verbatim, from Isaiah, as they revered him greatly and because the prophet then was instructed to do.
Rejoice; God has given us more of His word, more instruction, up-to-date instruction, such as the 1836 instruction that tobacco was harmful to man. When did men figure that out? The Book of Mormon does not supplant the Bible, it is a companion to it and fulfills the Law of Witnesses, which requires two or more independent sources.
I leave this with you and testify of the truth thereof, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen
Quote Reply
Re: [fbfgc] are men gods? In reply to
Hi fbfgc:

As an Anglican, (Church of England), I think article 6 of the 39 articles is relevant to the subject.

Of the Sufficiency of the holy scriptures for Salvation.

Holy scripture contains all things necessary for salvation : so that anything not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of anyone, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the holy Scripture we count those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the church.

The Canonical books are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, The first book of Samuel, The second book of Samuel, The first book of Kings, The second book of Kings, The first book of Chronicles, The second book of Chronicles, The first book of Esdras, The second book of Esdras, The book of Esther, The book of Job, The Psalms, The Proverbs, Ecclesiastes or Preacher, Cantica or Song of Soloman, the four prophets the greater, Twelve prophets the less.

As to the other books (as Hierome said), the church reads for example of life and instruction of manners; but not to establish any doctrine.

These are: The third book of Esdras, The fourth book of Esdras, The book of Tobias, The book of Judith, the rest of the book of Esther, The book of Wisdom, Jesus the Son of Sirach, Baruch the Prophet, The song of the Three Children, The story of Susanna, Of Bel and the Dragon, The prayer of Manasses, The first book of Maccabees, and the second book of Maccabees.

Plus all the books of the New Testament as they are commonly received, we count canonical.

Sadly the Book of Mormon does not appear among any of these named holy scriptures, so I must conclude that its contents are not binding upon me as articles of Christian Faith.

The story of how Joseph Smith translated the gold plates, (now unfortunately unavailable for study), is an interesting one. Joseph performed an amazing feat in translating them, in view of his lack of formal scholarship. What puzzles me is why he would have translated the original language in which the golden plates were engraved, in the way that he did. He translated the original not into the American vernacular tongue, (i.e his own language), but into antique Elizabethan English, (like the KJV used when translated in 1604). I just wonder why Prophet Smith chose to translate, not into his own contemporary language, but into language commonly used 200 years earlier in a different country.

I must say though that the Book of Mormon sounds quite impressive when read aloud. A bit like the KJV Bible sounds. Perhaps that was the effect Joseph was trying to achieve by his choice of language and cadence. It certainly seems to have made an impression on many of his followers.

Regards Chris.
Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Mar 13, 2015, 1:48 PM
Quote Reply
Re: [rdrcofe] are men gods? In reply to
Chris,

You mentioned that the canon of scripture is closed. Who did that, and why? Isn't God the same? Isn't He allowed to say anything more? What is the priesthood and authority of those who decided this? I propose that these are men without authority in a church of men. Your salvation does not depend upon them. It is between God and you, communicating by the Holy Ghost. When the Holy Ghost witnesses truth to you, that is it. It does not matter what some guy says. That is why converts to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints make that step only after the witness of the Holy Ghost.

You said on 20 Feb. in the thread, " The Theory of Evolution", "I happen to believe that it is irresponsible to refuse to inquire and to learn what it is possible to discover about what God has made". God has made, or caused to be written, new scripture, and has given new revelation. I think it is irresponsible to know that that exists, and that it is witnessed to, and then ignore it and attack it.

I witness to you and everyone that the statements I have made are true, and I make them so that you may have what I have been given. We make no money from your conversion. Our local leaders are not paid with filthy lucre. We are all volunteers, and in fact we give tithes plus other offerings for the poor and needy. We provide and staff a bishop's Store where the destitute can go and get food and other household items. We assist members to find employment. We provide vast amount of relief supplies for disasters, all over the world. We have 98 thousand teen-aged boys and girls as missionaries, all over the world, paying their own way and speaking the local language. We do not send 60 year old pastors; we send 18 year old boys and girls to represent the Church, because they have the Holy Spirit with them. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Quote Reply
Re: [fbfgc] are men gods? In reply to
fgfgc: Hi

You mentioned that the canon of scripture is closed. Who did that, and why? Isn't God the same? Isn't He allowed to say anything more?

Although the canon of scripture is not the only source of truth nor is it the only revelation of God, it is however the only true and sufficient account of God’s saving grace toward mankind and the only trustworthy information upon which to base ones trust in God’s Graceful provision of Salvation through faith in the life, death and teaching of The Lord Jesus Christ. No other revelation is necessary to secure salvation. The Book of Mormon is interesting but superfluous in respect to obtaining, securing, and preserving salvation.

The canon of scripture was closed because there were so many books being circulated which claimed to be ‘inspired’. Many were clearly not, ‘inspired’ by the Spirit of God, being not universally accepted by the church, not written by Apostles, (many not even being authored by the person claimed in the text itself. i.e. fakes). God remained the same, but God does not contradict Himself, and many of these books claiming to be ‘God speaking’ were mutually contradictory and contradicted the books already accepted by the church.

The canon was closed because it was realized that there was no need for any further revelation concerning the salvation of mankind. A proper understanding and acceptance of what was contained in Holy Scripture, (books that were generally already accepted by the majority of the church), was all that was, and still is, required.

God speaks through his servants still today but the duty of a minister of Christ is to preach Christ crucified and the salvation of sinners through the Grace of God, not burden people with more rules and regulations beyond those in holy scripture itself.

What is the priesthood and authority of those who decided this?

like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in scripture:
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a corner, stone chosen and precious,
and he who believes in him will not be put to shame." To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe,
"The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner," and
"A stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall";
for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1 Pet 2:5 also Rev 1:6, 5:10, 20:6.

All who rely upon Christ’s atoning sacrifice for the remission of sins are ‘priests to our God’.

I propose that these are men without authority in a church of men. That does not surprise me!

Your salvation does not depend upon them. It is between God and you, communicating by the Holy Ghost. I already know that!

It does not matter what some guy says. That depends on who they are and what they say.

God has made, or caused to be written, new scripture, and has given new revelation.

We only have your word and Joseph Smith’s on that. Merely claiming to bring new revelation from God, does not necessarily make it so. We are warned that many will come claiming special revelation in the end times. It is our responsibility to test every prophet and keep the faith as 'handed down to us'.

I think it is irresponsible to know that that exists, and that it is witnessed to, and then ignore it and attack it.

I have neither ignored or attacked it. I have simply said that it is not necessary unto salvation. Reading it will not ‘save’ me, if I am not already ‘saved’, neither will enquiring within it inform me of anything necessary, that scripture does not already contain, (regarding ‘salvation’).

There is no ‘salvation’ in either the Theory of Evolution or the works of Joseph Smith, as far as I can estimate. Both are merely interesting studies for the curious, not instruction on the way of ‘salvation’ for sinners.

I witness to you and everyone that the statements I have made are true, and I make them so that you may have what I have been given.

I do not doubt your sincerity, nor do I devalue your religious convictions. I merely reserve the right to be skeptical that any other than the historically accepted inspired books, namely the 39 books of the old testament and 27 books of the new, 66 in all, has any authority to modify what I already have learned and believe to be true about the source and means of ‘salvation’.

‘Faith’ and ‘works’ should go hand in hand, so it does not surprise me that your church does good in the world, for which it should be congratulated. That however is nothing to boast about.

"Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord." For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends. 2 Cor. 10:17.

Regards Chris.
Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.