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First Hand Account
Having worked and taught mostly Arabs in the Middle East for over five years I have experienced first hand the Islamic world. The generosity and hospitality of Arabs is at times unparalleled. However, the Islamic religious system of works righteousness and the idea that you can earn your way to heaven by your good deeds outweighing your bad deeds is one I can't accept as from God. Theft even in the heartland of Islam was endemic, and the treatment of nonarabs was horrible. In other words, sin is sin in the Middle East as it is throughout the world. Only faith in the price Jesus paid on the cross for our sins can give us the hope of heaven. Only the Bible can lead us out of the bondage of sin to freedom in Christ.

Craig Dressler
http://christianbook2.webs.com
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Re: [craigdressler] First Hand Account In reply to
Your logic is complete nonsense. Just because there is sin doesn't mean that salvation through work is not possible. You haven't seem have to read the OT, and secondly no Muslim believes that the deed alone will get you to heaven, at the end of the day it is the grace of God that will get you to heaven. But we just happen to believe that God's grace doesn't depend on killing some guy on a cross.
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
If you can by your own holiness earn your own salvation then you make yourself equal to your god. If you say your god made you holy enough to do that, then by that same authority you shouldn't have to earn another thing towards being equal with your God, sharing equally in all the benefits thereof.

Some sects believe people can earn salvation through works, but the Bible used by Christians prohibits that. Our God made me righteous unto holiness through faith in Jesus as the Bible says concerning Him, so there is no calling upon my own abilities or qualities to try earning what has been freely given already. God knew I would have failed miserably attempting such a goal on my own.

Works then stand as a sign, attributes, attesting to who I am in Christ. They are like that camel in the op. There are signs that indicate the animal is a camel. The signs don't make the camel a camel. Camels show camel signs. A few works or many works, I am saved just the same.

Blessings,
Jim
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Be fishers of men.....DG

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dovegiven: Sep 10, 2011, 8:42 AM
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
dovegiven wrote:
If you can by your own holiness earn your own salvation then you make yourself equal to your god.

Where does this come from? You're just spewing Church propaganda. How does earning salvation mean making yourself equal to God. There is like 0 logic to connect these two. God decides the price of Paradise, and it doesn't have to be perfection by all means. The problem with Christians is that you don't believe God can simply forgive. To you he must exact a price, for Muslims God can actually forgive if he wants.

And like I said in the end it is through God's grace one enters paradise, this is also what Muslims believe.
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
Do you slight Jesus? Is he not at least a major prophet spoken highly of in the Qu'ran? He didn't preach salvation by works, but by faith. It takes faith to comprehend John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

He never even hinted at salvation through any other gateway (Himself). Will you declare in defiance of the prophet and Lord Jesus that there remains another path? If so you declare Him in error. That defies the Qu'ran, for He is holy and without error. Even Muhammad knew that.

Of course Jehovah God can and sometimes does forgive unilaterally, but that isn't typical. It isn't something to demand or put all your eternal destiny in. He has made a better way, a way for anyone to know now what their eternal status is and will be. It is to know God, and for God to know us one by one. Jesus declared in His prayer to the Father in John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Do you know Him? Or are you hoping you will simply be forgiven in the end contrary to what Jesus declared?

To better understand the role of works in the eyes of God, then study Romans 3. You will find Paul denied the Jews any claim to value in achieving their own righteousness through works of any kind. Their religion was entirely based on works prescribed by the Law of Moses.

Blessings to all you seekers of truth,
Jim
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Be fishers of men.....DG
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
I see that you are new to Praize. It is my responsibility to welcome you and inform you of how Praize differs from sites you have been on previously.

We ARE a Christian site, but everyone is welcome here and everyone may participate and express their opinions as long as they do so with respect to other members and according to the Terms of Service. You can find the Forums Terms at www.praize.com/blog-forum-terms.

If you have questions or concerns, feel free to email me at praizeop2@praize.com or post a question in the Support forum.
Sarah - PraizeOP2
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
I spew Christian propaganda?

Do you respect the Qu'ran? Surely you know this sura and verse, then.

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2:136 Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which has been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit.

You apparently claim to be Muslim, so to be obedient you must submit to Jesus and His teachings, as well as all the prophets. He is the same Jesus that Christians follow. His sayings are not propaganda. His prophets are forth-tellers, those who speak for God, among which you may not make distinction. By definition the prophets included His apostles who were no less forth-tellers than those of ancient times. To be a good Muslim you are indebted to study, learn, comprehend, and do the commandments of Jesus so that He knows you love Him. His prophets have expounded upon Jesus' gospel message so that you will lack nothing, knowing God, thus inheriting eternal life. That is not based on a whimsical forgiveness from God just because He could forgive.

When you visit here, please expect Christians to dialog with you from the perspective of the teachings of Jesus. To be seen as wise and knowledgeable, I recommend that you try to shape your comments so as not to disgrace the Qu'ran, Muhammad, or any other authority such as the Bible you are required to respect.

Please consider the warning of Jude 1:[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. [10] But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. [11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Blessings to all seekers of Truth,
Jim
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Be fishers of men.....DG
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
Your lengthy post didn't answer my question. I'll put the question simply:

Give me a biblical reference that says anything of the sort that gaining salvation through works means 'to make' oneself equal to God. I bet you can't find a single verse, and this is what I call Church Propaganda, statements based on non-biblical ideas.
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
There is no one verse that makes that doctrine, but the overall teachings of Jesus leaves no doubt about it. There are very specific instructions given to us.
Matthew 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So it is nobody is saved trying to earn or achieve salvation. One comes to Christ when the Father calls, not before or after, then follows the path laid out by Jesus. That sermon above is the center of His doctrine.

John 10 has Jesus' sermon on the good shepherd/false shepherd entering the sheepfold. The authorized shepherd enters through the door, while the thief climbs over the wall. Verse 9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Not so for anyone making his own way to steal the divine right of salvation/eternal life that only Jesus can authorize. In any manner of making another way one assigns himself a delusion that he has such authority, therefore crowns himself God, therefore able to save himself and lead others to his own destruction. He is but a thief, a robber.

Romans 4:[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Will you declare you can achieve something worthwhile through works while Abraham didn't do a work to save himself? He knew God, remained in faith, pleased God. Romans 11:[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

"By grace" indicates a move from God toward man, not man approaching divinity. When a man attempts to do through works what God offered by grace, he attempts to make himself on the same level as divinity. God alone can save because He is God. It is not an action by mercy.

So it is that I come to this point that tends to offend Muslims, but you require my answer. John 5:[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. [18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. [19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

If you claim you can do works that please God by your own mind, power, or requirement of men on earth, then you make yourself greater than Jesus, therefore no less than God. He will not have it.

That is the heart of my doctrinal claim and answer. Earning salvation by works is ignored by God. Such works mean nothing to Him, except to further justify in the Judgment He never knew you, saying such people are workers of iniquity. The reason for that is God has already made the way of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus by grace, a gift of God. It is an insult to insist on paying for a wonderful gift, changing the gift into wages earned. A gift is a gift.

Even Jesus refused to claim He could do any works of himself. I will conclude with Philip. 2:[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rather than think you can achieve by works what can only be awarded by God, attempting to be equal with God by doing what only God can do, consider being humble, taking the position of servant of God, while being called the friend of God. None of us can claim equality with God by any of our own efforts.
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Be fishers of men.....DG

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dovegiven: Sep 23, 2011, 8:38 AM
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
q786godisgreat :

You wrote : “Just because there is sin doesn't mean that salvation through work is not possible.”

Your statement is technically true but based on a false premise. I believe that the Covenant between God and Adam still stands. Anyone who has never sinned can please God and gain salvation by continuing in righteousness. I also beleve that tjis was done by only one man in the history of all mankind. Jesus Christ the Righteous. That is what makes HIM the propitiation for our sin.

It is true that ‘salvation through work is possible’ but unfortunately it is not possible for sinful human beings. But what is impossible for sinful human being is possible for God, through Jesus Christ.

Christians generally believe that all human beings have sinned from a very early age and very few there are that are willing to admit and repent of all their sin, (even if they are actually aware of all the sinful deeds they have actually done). Many supposedly ‘righteous’ deeds done by those who supposed themselves to be ‘the faithful’ will be downright condemned by the ‘God of Love’ as evil deeds.

For example - such will certainly be those who have murdered non-combatants (as in terrorist suicide missions) in their frenzied and misguided jihad against those they hypocritically labeled the infidel . . .

and such also will be the fate of those in military uniform who have mistakenly convinced themselves that God sanctions revenge torture and murder in support and defence of The United States of America and her allies.

Both may have been sincerely convinced of their ‘righteous motivation’ but were merely deluded by their own misguided ignorance of God's ways

For ‘works’ to be of any value whatever before God they must be wrought in God. In other words they must be deeds unquestionably approved by God and done for no other motive but to ‘please’ God.

I don’t think there is a human being anywhere on earth that unfailingly knows at all times and in all places what is approved by God and whether their motives are entirely untainted by selfishness or deceit.

That, unfortunately is the reason I believe it is not possible to secure salvation through human effort alone.

That having been said however, Jesus Christ has risen from death and returned to His Father in order that we may be enabled to live ‘as He did’, (and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling) - . . . . . .

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16Holding forth the word of life;” Phillipians 2:12-16

Faith without works is dead but works from an impure heart, without knowledge of what pleases God are as bad as ‘works of the Devil’.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Sep 23, 2011, 4:36 PM
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Re: [craigdressler] First Hand Account In reply to
dovegiven- I don't follow your logic whatsoever, it feels totally made up. None of those verses (even combined) suggest that. It only does so because you already believe it. You're making the Bible say what you want, but no logical minded person, regardless of what they believe in, can find your argument justified by the verses you used.

@Rdcofe
The argument that a person who has sinned can not please God has no basis whatsoever, considering if God can and does forgive. But this is something instituted by Christians because otherwise it offers an alternative to which Christians don't accept.

And in your ending you are right that the action must be done with a pure heart... In Islam there is a famous hadith: "Actions are judged by their intention" (and motive).... it doesn't have to be absolutely pure, because God can forgive. He created us knowing what is wrong with us, he can forgive us even if our intentions aren't exactly perfect but are still good and based upon knowledge of the religion itself.

Whether someone did the right thing or not is for God to determine. At the end of the day, people will enter Paradise because of God's grace not their work, because they're works will never be enough for them to get to heaven. But that grace doesn't require some sacrifice, it is the sole authority of God to forgive and bless them with his grace.

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q786godisgreat: Sep 24, 2011, 9:52 PM
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
Fahad, I have been interested in your posts here. Thank you for participating. I believe that your stating your beliefs helps other to clarify their own beliefs.

I am not a debator. I have spent your lifetime growing in my faith and what I believe is unshakable. If someone wants to know what I believe, I am happy to tell them, but I am not interested in what someone else believes and I allow them to believe whatever they choose. So for me to debate would be fruitless on either side. I do want to make one statement, however, on one thing that you said:

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Whether someone did the right thing or not is for God to determine. At the end of the day, people will enter Paradise because of God's grace not their work, because they're works will never be enough for them to get to heaven. But that grace doesn't require some sacrifice, it is the sole authority of God to forgive and bless them with his grace.

I guess that is the bottom line difference between your belief and mine. You apparently give no creedance to the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus. To me, people will enter heaven because of God's grace AND who Jesus is. Without Jesus' birth, death and sacrifice, there would be no propitiation for our sins.

Be all that as it may, the only point I really wanted to make to you is to please don't credit ALL Christians with the beliefs of one. The Bible is much too involved for us all to agree on it all. If you take any book and have thousands (let alone millions or billions) of people read it, you will receive many different opinions. The statements here, are the personal statements of each poster, including mine. So, it would mean a lot to me if you didn't put us all in a box under "What Christians Believe". :)

Again, I enjoy reading your posts and am learning from them. I hope that you will continue to comment here so we can all see how others believe and what our differences are.
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
The hadith actually reads "Actions are judged by their intention and everyone shall have only what he intended. Therefore, those who migrate for Allah and His Messenger, their migration was for Allah and His Messenger; and those whose migratation was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, their migration will be judged for their intentions."

Intentions must stand up to Sharia and specific standards of conduct to be approved. Intentions are known to each person before some conduct, so if the person knows the requirements of Allah ahead of time, he already knows the judgment of his action. In no way does that hadith assume intentions or actions will be subject to an unknown decision at the judgment. In other words, you should know before even intending to do something whether it is pleasing to Allah or not. In the case that caused the hadith to be written, a man had migrated to Madinah during the Hijrah only to marry, not for the good of Islam. The man knew before he set out his intentions were wrong, so both intention and action were already judged. If what you do runs afoul of Shariah then you will only reap some worldly benefit in this life and expect no reward from Allah, expecting punishment in hell instead. Therefore I think you have misapplied that hadith to this thread. You should already discern good works worthy of reward, and bad works worthy of certain eternal punishment. It isn't true Allah "can and does forgive" for all intentions and actions. He will not forgive those who ignore what is written for you to obey. I recommend you review the several lessons extracted from that hadith, as it contains one third of the knowledge of Islam.

As for my answer to your challenge not making sense to you, that is expected. It means you are still a natural man (not a bad thing yet), not understanding spiritual things according to the apostle Paul as inspired by God. 1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Answer the call of the Father God to go to Jesus Christ while He still calls. Then you become a spiritual man. Upon doing that you will understand it all as you diligently search the scriptures for knowledge of Christ.
If a man ignores that call, then he will die a natural man and suffer eternal punishment.


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Be fishers of men.....DG
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
@Praize

I think my understanding that God can forgive people without punishing (or sacrifice) is quite substantiated in the Bible, while I do believe Christians have totally misunderstood the NT at the expense of the OT and much of the NT.

@dove

It makes no logical sense. has nothing to do with born again or whatever. You couldn't provide a logical argument because your argument is totally made up. Turn in this argument to some literary professor who is not biased, and they'll tell you the same thing.
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
You are right. The gospel of Christ was never meant to fit man's understanding of logic, else wicked men unlock the benefits of the Kingdom of Heaven without repenting of sin. That's why God removed Adam from the Garden. lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live in his damned condition forever.

However, God likes to sit and reason with His people. Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

It begins with opening yourself to minimal reasoning before Holy God upon His calling to you, then trusting Him by faith to take you where He wants you to be. Once you arrive to His appointed place on that path you would then see the logic. For now you must remain wandering inside the mystery like Israel has done for the past two millennium.

Again, you can't possibly comprehend it since it is only comprehended by aid of the Holy Spirit, through a born-again man-spirit, to your mind. Comprehend or not, you are responsible for what truth you have been exposed to. My duty is to preach the gospel. Your duty is to believe it by faith like Abraham believed God by faith. Will you not follow Abraham's acts? Is he nothing to Islam? If so, then all you can benefit by is human logic, as infirm as it is.

I have studied and partially memorized some of hundreds of the most famous, most beloved, and the most scholar-approved sermons of giants of our faith, great preachers over the centuries, and the gospel I preach conforms closely to theirs, as well as to the New Testament Bible. Of course the Old Covenant is not the engine behind the New Covenant, so I will not be found preaching the Old at disfavor of the New. The blood of Jesus ratified the New Covenant. I'll stop with that, knowing it can't be comprehended as logical.

I am no stranger to doing what you do now. I did all through my college years, a devout evolutionist, science major (geology and biology, unable to decide which to do for life for 5 years), insisting on a purely logical world, all else a heap of absurdities. But one day I wanted to marry a girl so much I agreed to humor her by taking her to hear Oral Roberts preach. That day my logical world got turned upside down. From then on what was illogical to me, the gospel of Christ, became the sum of logic. Consider Jesus more than one of the messengers. He is the One all the other messengers announced to mankind. But none of them did justice to Him, save the written Word of God, the Old Testament and the New Testament of Bible scriptures. They testify of who He is better than any one messenger. Jesus hung the Jew's law on His cross, as well as that of Islam even before it was received.
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Be fishers of men.....DG

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dovegiven: Sep 28, 2011, 1:17 PM
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
It appears to me you are broadcasting Islamic propaganda rather than the message you claim to represent. You dodged my replies on the basis of propagandizing. You are actually calling the gospel of Christ propaganda. We have extant writings confirming the current Christian doctrine that is dated well before Muhammad lived.

I want to know why you presented that "famous hadith" which is not at all like the original. If you know from the outset your action is immoral, then you cannot expect forgiveness, and will receive no more than the worldly gain sought for.

I sure would like for you to expound more on how the Qu'ran assures you God WILL forgive, because He CAN. I think all of us reading your post agree God CAN forgive, and does forgive under certain conditions, but most disagree as to guarantees of forgiveness on the basis you posed.

In my earlier answer I explained at length one key saying of Jesus that, upon diligently pursuing, does answer in a very Christian gospel manner. Matthew 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Doing what God says to do pleases God.
People will by their own volition seek to please God by calling Him Lord.
People will by their own volition seek to please God by prophesies.
People will by their own volition seek to please God by casting out evil spirits.
People will by their own volition seek to please God do wonderful works.
All of such acts of men shall be rejected by God unless they were acts of obedience to directions from God.

Even Jesus refused to do anything other than what the Father God told Him to do.

To exceed the authority of Jesus who yielded to God is to (attempt) to make oneself equal with God, at least more authoritative than Jesus. The scriptures declare perfectly that salvation is not gained by works. Even WONDERFUL WORKS.

The only Wonderful Work you cannot offer, that pleased God, is that of Jesus on the cross. It is folly to think there is yet another work that will equally please God. God has prescribed the path to eternal life, that is to KNOW God and Jesus, His eternal son.

Of course I am not saying a person can make himself equal with God, an impossible feat. Attempting to make yourself equal is sin resulting in eternal death.

Before saying I'm making stuff up, diligently search the scriptures, for in them you shall find life eternal.



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Be fishers of men.....DG

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dovegiven: Sep 29, 2011, 7:18 AM
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
dovegiven wrote:
You are right. The gospel of Christ was never meant to fit man's understanding of logic, else wicked men unlock the benefits of the Kingdom of Heaven without repenting of sin.

Great... So it seems you're the holy one who understands everything. Good for you. But at least you've admitted that you have made no logical argument using the Bible as evidence. You're just making up your arguments and posting long posts that don't even answer the question..

I didn't 'dodge' your posts, I asked you a simple question and you failed miserably. I don't have all the time in the world to respond to things which I never asked for and were not an answer to my question frankly.

You may be able to write long posts, but that means nothing if you can't even answer my question. I'm not stupid enough to be taken off-track by long winded posts that have no substantive argument that answers my question.

You may post another long post if you want but as long as you don't answer my question and support it with your Bible I really am not going to respond to this. But since you've come to the conclusion that Bible can't be understood by logic- I'm not trying to 'understand God' with logic- just the Bible's teaching.

So if Bible can't be understood, then I guess there is no point discussing with me.

I can understand the Bible, because its there in English, and your argument about 'make yourself equal to God' is completely made up.
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
Great... So it seems you're the holy one who understands everything. Good for you. But at least you've admitted that you have made no logical argument using the Bible as evidence. You're just making up your arguments and posting long posts that don't even answer the question..

I am but one of millions whose natural mind is aided by God to rise above carnal logic into that of God's Kingdom. You could do that too, if "in Christ" and filled with the Holy Spirit. In fact my posts were full of logic and reason in context, with no parables to withhold truth. You can't see it yet because you are yet spiritually blind. Nothing personal, it's just Bible fact.

IF I were to pose my own arguments while using the "Bible as evidence", then you would certainly reply that I was making it all up, since you already do that when I cite the Bible AS my argument.

I didn't 'dodge' your posts, I asked you a simple question and you failed miserably. I don't have all the time in the world to respond to things which I never asked for and were not an answer to my question frankly.

You are still dodging my challenge over a Hadith you used in answer above. I will accept your defeat over that issue, that you like the saying but don't understand it. My answers were totally appropriate. You failed to comprehend it, which I don't blame you for in any way. The Jews of Jesus' time had the same problem comprehending Jesus, and most still fail to comprehend God's logic. It is impossible for any person to frame words sufficiently to overcome that gap in comprehension.

You may be able to write long posts, but that means nothing if you can't even answer my question. I'm not stupid enough to be taken off-track by long winded posts that have no substantive argument that answers my question.

You say you don't have time to deal with long posts, and as you claim "off topic contents", so it appears you just didn't take time to try understanding in the first place. I know that because you are not challenging specific lines. All this stands as testimony that the Bible is true concerning those rejecting the gospel of Christ. Come to Jesus now. He is waiting.

So if Bible can't be understood, then I guess there is no point discussing with me.

It is designed to be totally comprehended through use of very simple forms of literature and easy to use words in most languages of the world, but God will not allow carnal interpretations. When a person responds to God in a pleasing way, taking a step towards Him in faith, the Spirit will remove the scales of spiritual blindness from your eyes. Many Muslims have done that and are blessed to be born again in Christ.

I can understand the Bible, because its there in English, and your argument about 'make yourself equal to God' is completely made up.

I expect such an attitude, but will continue to love you in Christ, always presenting gospel truth. The truth is in those posts above. Salvation supposedly gained through works, or forgiveness gained through works, is rejected by God because those acts are examples of a thief claiming over the sheepfold wall. Taking holy treasure by a way not allowed by God is seen as a person making himself God, able to secure eternal life of his own power.

You say you can understand the Bible. Please expound it to support your claims in this thread. I'll do this if you will address all your points using the Bible in support: I will not reply to you in this thread unless you ask me to. But if you don't support using the Bible I should continue to comment in an effort to guide understanding. I am not trying to shame you, but will challenge your beliefs if they appear unbiblical. We are not obligated here to give equal weight to Islamic influences on a Christian community. That is a huge purpose of any Christian forum. You are here, so will continue to see our perspective. In doing so I will learn even more of Islam and other religions, little by little as I search the Qu'ran to check you out, study the two sets of hadiths to get the perspective you are expected to have from your religion, and reply in growing knowledge to all your statements.


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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
Your standard answer to us is Your logic is complete nonsense. Followed by statements like Just because there is sin doesn't mean that salvation through work is not possible. You haven't seem have to read the OT, and secondly no Muslim believes that the deed alone will get you to heaven, at the end of the day it is the grace of God that will get you to heaven. But we just happen to believe that God's grace doesn't depend on killing some guy on a cross.

You claim to understand the Bible. So now it is time for you to demonstrate that ability. Please explain using the Bible with verses in context how it is that God's grace alone saves through unilateral forgiveness from God regardless of actions or motives, yet throughout the OT God demanded blood of animals, and throughout the NT God was satisfied only with the blood of Jesus. We are waiting now for our correction.

If though you say our scriptures are corrupted, then pay attention to the verifications of the Dead Sea Scrolls now available free online, the thousands of extant manuscripts that verify the current scriptures as unchanged, all originated centuries before Muhammad was born. You must prove corruption, and identify exactly at what point they were corrupted, else you must be said to spew Islamic propaganda.

If though you say the modern Church has interpreted the scriptures incorrectly, then how is that modern doctrine lines up with that of the earliest Church Fathers, whose writings have been preserved from before Muhammad was born.

Meanwhile, Christians are witnessing first hand accounts of the truth about Islam.

If though you cannot accommodate those challenges, perhaps it is time for you to politely inquire of the Christian faith, accepting the fact many of us still teach and preach the same doctrines Jesus and His apostles taught. What the Jews read and believe was written many centuries before Muhammad, the copious number of copies that agree over those centuries proving statistically beyond comprehension of odds that nothing has changed in them since Moses.


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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
You sure like to run away from answering the question.

Lets step back a little...

I asked you to show me evidence from the bible of a statement you made about 'make yourself equal to God'... Everything else is irrelevant to me no matter how long your post is.

I hope you remember that this was my question, and then you responded with verses that don't make that argument whatsoever. I'm a very to the point person, I'm not going to be responding to long posts that don't address my question which has been the question from the very start. Everything else, as far as I'm concerned, is just deceptive moves to divert from your inability to back yourself.

I'm a medical student so I don't have time for nonsense. Just 'quoting' bible doesn't cut it. It should at least make your case. If your argument is God loves you, then quoting a verse that says "My Father is greater than I" isn't proof. That is what you are doing. Making an argument, then quoting the Bible when it doesn't even make sense to quote.

So back up your statement that you made earlier with RELEVANT verses, don't just make up your argument out of nowhere.

'make yourself equal to God'- now please proceed ;)

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q786godisgreat: Sep 30, 2011, 6:10 PM
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
The answer is given in my own words with Bible support. It's too bad you can't get it. It appears to me you are desperate to avoid understanding that. I understand.
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
dovegiven wrote:
The answer is given in my own words with Bible support. It's too bad you can't get it. It appears to me you are desperate to avoid understanding that. I understand.

The problem is the evidence (biblical quotes) you used to support your argument don't do so. I ask that you take that to any University professor well versed in argumentation, and they can tell you that your 'evidence' doesn't support the conclusion you are trying to draw.

Its not a matter of 'understanding'. Its kind of like saying 2+2 = 4 because the sky is blue. This just doesn't cut it.

Anyways.
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Re: [q786godisgreat] First Hand Account In reply to
No time for this? It appears to me you took plenty of time responding to Christian posts as illogical, so why not switch to simply making your own case and ignore those "illogical" claims?

If you think you know I am wrong and know "any" university professor who can explain why, then why haven't you presented that case already after contacting them? You say I am wrong, yet give no explanation of yours. I am looking for you to defend your own statements. If you need professors to speak for you, that's understandable given the depth of your comments so far. But the evidence is strong that you would end up questioning "any" university professor comments on my statements, finding theirs "illogical" also. I have no need of checking with any professor, having double checked through my own library of textbooks of some of the most famous Bible scholars.

Please give it a big try. "Any" med student ought to be able.
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
My daughter is a high school English teacher who thinks she might have a key to understanding. When a person "makes himself to be" something, it should be understood usually that nobody can do that except in some expected way, like making your body to be highly muscular, but many people simulate self-creation through fantasies, filling a role mentally. That is OK as long as it doesn't become a permanent departure from reality. No human can make himself some other being, just like you can't possibly think yourself an inch taller.

In the same way any persons that take upon themselves roles reserved by God, making themselves equal with God, we label them Humanist. They think they can elevate mankind to god level.

Does that help?
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Re: [dovegiven] First Hand Account In reply to
My case?

If your evidence doesn't back your argument- that is all I can tell you. I'm not here to teach you how an argument works or what counts as 'evidence'. That is something you need to have a sense about.

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In the same way any persons that take upon themselves roles reserved by God, making themselves equal with God, we label them Humanist. They think they can elevate mankind to god level.

If God allows works to be a means to attain paradise- then the man has not taken the role of God in doing so.