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Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith?

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Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith?
Consider the following scenario:

Two competing airlines, one totally staffed by literal fundamentalist bible believing Christians, the other totally staffed by religiously skeptical but scientifically astute atheists.

When ever an airliner in its fleet crashes with huge loss of life the Christian airline management holds a prayer meeting in remembrance of the victims. Then declares that God acts in a mysterious way and simply orders a similar replacement aircraft from the same manufacturer, 'prays' it into the fleet when it arrives and hopes for the best.

The Atheist airline however, not believing that God was involved in any way, insists upon a full scientific investigation and an inquiry into the CAUSE of the crash with a view to preventing similar failures and disasters in its aircraft in future.

Which airline would YOU book flights on?

The 'all believers' one or the 'all atheists' one?

You see? Matters of faith are not as simplistic as some believers may imagine. A degree of skepticism about how and when God may interact or intervene and a healthy desire to fully understand cause and effect on a scientific level, rather than just accepting disaster as 'The Will of Allah' or 'Fate' or 'God's Will', is actually better all round than mere blind unquestioning acceptance of 'the divine authority' or 'the will of God' however it may be imagined to operate.

FAITH should never be a deliberate denial or abdication of reason. If it has become so then there is something defective about it.

Regards Chris.
Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Sep 24, 2017, 11:52 PM
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Re: [rdrcofe] Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith? In reply to
Hi Chris.

Fortunately, our choice of airlines is not so constricted.

You write:

<<FAITH should never be a deliberate denial or abdication of reason. If it has become so then there is something defective about it. >>

Which is quite a mouthful, as they say. Again it is fortunate that such abdication of reason is not necessary for most Christians, which is why we find many devout believers also accepting the process of natural selection as a part of God's planning of life on Earth.

For my part, as long as the believer knows his or her craft, it matters not whether there is also a belief in a God with a plan. Unless and until that particular belief takes over his or her actions, which impact me.

The lack of reasoning drives my daughter and son-in-law nuts when it comes to his JW family, who eschew traditional medicine in favor of a charlatan selling homeopathic remedies that he alters to the patient's individual needs by placing a closed bottle of tincture upon an electric/magnetic device, which he claims aligns the molecular structure of the remedy to that patient's particulars. I smack my hand against my forehead here.

The only redeeming factor of this wacko is that when their symptoms are very obvious, such as heart disease or diabetes, etc., he will persuade them to seek the help of a specialist. The patient and the rest of the church then praise such revelation as providence working through their beloved "doctor." There is money to be made here selling herbal and homeopathic remedies, which once begun seemingly cannot be done without, since any ill can be linked to failure to use them properly. He is used by all of the family's JW church and I suppose is also a JW...and because no JW can ever do anything against another or do wrong, all are trusted forever, despite truth to the opposite. This "faith" in fellow JWs is horribly abused and the results are mind boggling to people who use their brains at all.

That and the fact that they never plan for anything because they place all their lives in God's hands makes their non-JW children worry and necessitates gifts of cash or other large money items from them to help their parents or other siblings left in dire straits by God's planning. They won't even wear a seatbelt when traveling in a car, but at least they do comply with state laws requiring children to be in proper restraints, although they do not comply with adult seatbelt laws. I guess there is a fear of social services's child protection department stepping in if there is a complaint.

It is difficult to understand. Is it that they have such a belief in the "fantastic" that makes them so at ease with "fantastic" cures over anything which smacks of human ability?

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [jeanne53] Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith? In reply to
Hi, Jeanne,
I laughed my way through your post! Everything you say is so deliciously true! To me, it just illustrates the amazing differences and challenges provided by the differences in our bodies and our minds and the creativity they enjoy.

Cheers to your daughter and son-in-law for being bold enough to try something that worked that is not mechanical or some other medically accepted tradition without checking the details of life or death or other results that could be
had from following medical characteristics. I mean, how many people have been treated in a hospital and then died? And how many have been treated by natural means which failed and they eventually were healed anyway? I am happy that I have the choice to choose!

<<FAITH should never be a deliberate denial or abdication of reason. If it has become so then there is something defective about it. To me, I, we. are all going to die... sooner or later.... one way or another. This life was given to us to enjoy and to look at and make choices.
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [praizeop2] Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith? In reply to
Hi Sarah.

Happy that you got a good laugh over my post. That is often a great cathartic.

As to the homeopathic-pushing charlatan, it is his family's insistence on following this man's advice and tinctures that drives my daughter and son-in-law nuts. They do not use these "remedies" because there is nothing in them except alcohol or sterilized water. The idea that a small amount of liquid can "remember" the qualities of a fungal spore or a toxin and then prevent against a body's reaction to it is absolutely bunk.

And...the idea which JWs have that the "rapture" is just around the bend, so why plan for any future, is what makes it necessary for their non-JW children to come to their rescue with cash or large item purchases for them. They think God will provide, but it is instead their non-believing children who provide. It is not God that moves their children to act so, but love and concern for their parents. Or...if that is a round-about way for God to provide, it says nothing about a believer being responsible for themselves and their families held in that belief.

Of course people die in hospitals, it is most often the last recourse for seriously ill people and for those undergoing major surgery. I will grant that the bodies of humans and all living creatures have terrific innate healing abilities. Humans have become able to withstand ever greater assaults upon their bodies due only to medical science and technology. Still there is a point at which such action becomes futile and continued treatment of any sort fails and death is imminent.

We each have the ability to choose, but homeopathy is a fool's choice and a waste of time and resources. Natural therapies and herbal remedies are not in the same class and many people find them to be beneficial. Acupuncture has its uses, but mostly for pain control. Healing touch is a sham.

Yes, we are each going to die. How we decide to protect ourselves from the elements and assaults upon our bodies from the other life forms that share our planet and the aging process that diminishes our stamina is our choice. I try to choose well. Seems the least anyone can do since we just have one go around in the body we have.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."

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jeanne53: Sep 26, 2017, 6:34 AM
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Re: [jeanne53] Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith? In reply to
MY LIFE BY NOW YOU KNOW HAS BEEN CENTER IN FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND THE MEDICAL THAT EXIST CAN'T BE DENIED. I DON'T ACCEPT THE THOUGHTS OF THE JW'S BUT AGREE THAT
FAITH IN JESUS IS THE MOST POSITIVE WAY TO GO.

THE LAST LINE TO A SONG I ONCE RECORDED WITH A GROUP IN COLLEGE IS"IN JESUS I AM SAFE EVERMORE''
\M7TH
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Re: [m7thprophet] Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith? In reply to
Hi Jim.

Certainly a positive attitude benefits a person who is trying to heal body or spirit. And faith in Jesus brings a positive attitude along with a sense of unconditional love from God. That, along with proper medical treatment often leads to a good prognosis. Reality makes us realize that sometimes the body is not capable of recovering no matter what is done or believed.

If I had to choose for treatment....or an airline.... I would choose science over faith in a deity. Each person makes his or her own choice and must live or die with the ensuing consequences of that choice.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [praizeop2] Most trustworthy, science or absolute faith? In reply to
praizeop2: Hi Sarah

how many people have been treated in a hospital and then died? And how many have been treated by natural means which failed and they eventually were healed anyway? I am happy that I have the choice to choose!

Both searching questions Sarah.

Of course the final outcome in many hospital treatments is death. Back in the 19th century when medical science was considerably more ignorant, (though it can still yet learn), death was even more often the outcome, even for relatively trivial conditions. In a hospital, there was actually an increased concentration of ailing people and a great deal of cross infection. Home cures and 'traditional remedies' although of questionable efficacy, at least avoided much of the additional risk of complications due to cross infection and botched operations. Therefore if you were suffering from something relatively trivial, it was best to stay out of hospital. Alternatively if you were suffering from something fatal, for which there was, as yet, no medical cure, it was best to stay out of hospital if pain alleviation could be administered at home.

Nowadays there is less risk of cross infection and botched surgery in hospital though because of better hygiene, better education and more advanced medications and procedures, (all this still can be improved on though). Nevertheless it is still the most serious cases which find themselves entering hospital as a 'last resort' and we all know that last resorts are often 'final', so to speak. Dying is generally the very last thing anyone wants to do so avoiding hospital is relatively sensible on that count, but not sensible if there is a good chance that scientifically proven procedures may successfully intervene to stave of the finality of the evil day.

The other question is 'How many have been treated by natural means which failed, and they were eventually healed anyway'?

Spontaneous recovery is always a possibility and a positive attitude is often the key to remission. The failure of many 'natural cures' though is more often due to the fact that most simply don't work or have not be proven to work in clinical trials. 'Snake Oil' salesmen peddle their dubious wares duping the vulnerable infirmed and adding financial loss to their already burdensome load of misery.

The woman Jesus healed of constant hemorrhage was a case in point. Luke 8:43-48. She had spent all she had on quack cures which did not work but left her destitute as a result. Jesus, for her, was a 'last resort' which fortunately for her she did not reject in favor of more homeopathic mumbo jumbo.

In short then I would say home cures are OK for trivial conditions where the outcome is unlikely to end in finality and a spontaneous recovery likely anyway, but more serious medical issues need the expertise of modern medical science and ignoring or rejecting it can be fatal. Another thing to be aware of with home cures is the fact that, (just like some recognized medications), they sometimes contain poisons which are quite capable of merely masking symptoms and making the situation worse.

I have attended a GP surgery run by Christian Doctors. They were very knowledgeable, but no better than some other GPs or surgeons that did not declare their religious affiliations to me. They could quite possibly have been atheists but I trusted their judgment in issues concerning my physical health. I might have more difficulty with a 'believing' doctor whose only prescription was prayer and the laying on of hands though. Particularly if he was a follower of Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy.

Regards Chris
Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Sep 26, 2017, 11:34 PM