This once saved always saved topic was brought up in another section of the forums and I'd like to get your thoughts on the matter.
I agree with Sarah that if you can lose it...you never had it to begin with. I know that somewhere in my KJV there was a verse that spoke of once you are delivered into the hand of God...you can not be removed. I just can't recall where it is at the moment. I'm trying to find it. Anyway, I have a hard time believing that someone who got saved could actually change their mind and turn their back on the love of God. I somehow doubt that God would take back a gift we willingly accepted from Him. Especially when we have to ask for it in the first place which means we had to want it to begin with. I could never turn my back on God and His love. Nor would I ever want to. I can't see our salvation coming and going on a whim due to our behavior. It wouldn't be salvation if it could be taken back because that would mean that God would take back our forgiveness too.

I have some very good friends in the Baptists group that this comes from and though we disagree;we maintain our relationship in the Lord.
I have been in the worst situations you can imagine for a sinner and gladly proclaim that worst of salvation so far exceeds the best of the world that there is nothing else.
The once saved doctrine simply means that no matter what you do after you receive the Lord? and you are still saved. It's not a matter of screwing up and then getting saved again. It is having it take and the change occurs.
As a boy at home I probably went through the salvation routine a 150 times in 6 years and the last time went to the altar weeping saying I messed up but this time at that altar met a real Jesus and got up eternally changed.
When you meet Jesus in reality something happens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! start with Rom.1:16 and go through Rom.10:9-10 usingevery cross reference you can start to see your answers
m7th
m7th--circle of revival

My wife was a "lifer" Southern Baptist until age 30 when she shocked her entirely S.B. family by our departure from that organization, both of us requesting to have our names removed from the membership roll. I had almost completed SBC seminary requirements towards a possible pastoral career, but decided I couldn't support doctrines like the one you brought up. We went another direction, non-denominational, then AOG, then back to non-denominational again over failure to support some doctrines that eventually went through the fire, but too late for me.

It is true there is nothing, no power on earth or anywhere in the universe that can take you away from the saving hands of your Savior and Lord Jesus. Indeed, salvation is a gift from God, and you can forever count on God saving you from the wrath to come, then on into eternity with Him. You will find that here:
Romans 8:[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Beware any Calvinist slant on that. God knew before even making Adam what His salvation plan had to be, calls all people to face it, and of course being God always knew who would accept His plan, and who would reject it. God would be unjust to pick some to be saved and give those an advantage like "a deal you can't possibly turn away". God will demonstrate His justness by proving each person made their own choice upon hearing the gospel preached.

Let's look at Romans again, knowing there were no chapters and verse numbers in the original manuscript, those added later for convenience. We love chapter 8. But many dislike chapter 9, which is a continuation of 8. Paul's heart suddenly sinks, realizing his brethren the Jews were losing their status, the non-Jews (gentiles) being saved instead. The Jews had sought righteousness through works of the law instead of faith. The gentiles didn't have the burden of the law, learning of faith only, and they accepted it. Romans 9:[30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Many gentiles have fallen into the same trap the Jews did, taking a promise of salvation that has some work involved besides faith, and often involving a lessening on the role of Jesus. If your salvation in any way was dependent upon a religious rite, reciting some promise to men, being "covered" by some human priest (Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.), purchasing salvation rights back for yourself or a dead person, or any other system of works, then that is a corrupted arrangement, voided before God. Because many people accept a salvation plan with an extra step or two not commanded in the New Testament scriptures, they have yet to possess biblical salvation, and have nothing to lose yet, except of course to continue being lost.

But for those who do hear the gospel preached/taught (or read it), believing it, believing upon Jesus more than just accepting that He existed and was "good", and confessing Jesus before neighbors by word and submission to water baptism with repentance from sin, those are saved upon doing that, and will be saved also from the wrath coming to this world.

The scriptures warn of dire results of "making shipwreck" of your faith, departing from it. No ship could wreck that doesn't sail. We also have stern warning against forsaking Christ before men, as Jesus will not confess your name before the Father. Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

The book of Hebrews makes it clear the danger is for those considered advanced in the Christian way according to Hebrews 6:[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Relatively few people on earth reach that level, and far fewer with that experience entertain abandonment of Christ, but some do, attested to by Judas Iscariot and some folks Paul wrote about. I've witnessed it, men who could master the Bible, spoke in tongues, partook of miracles, preached the gospel for hearers to be saved, taught the Bible.....but willingly and deliberately reverting back to their former corruption of drugs, perversion, and total abandonment of the faith right into death without repentance. It is a most terrible thing to witness.

It is all based on our choices. When the Father calls us to respond to the gospel, that is the day of salvation. There is no guarantee of one more chance to do that on God's timing. It is His timing, our decision. Decide and don't go back on that decision for Christ. If you hold on through your daily decision, nothing can take you away from God. Better yet, be a disciple that follows Jesus daily like the apostles did, rising each morning to share His journey. If your sights are always on Jesus, He will lead you safely.
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There came a time when preparing for licensing and ordination that the SBC required me to declare that all members, once water baptized by a SBC minister, must be declared eternally saved regardless of whether they paid attention to the things of God since then. That meant that if a person was baptized at age 12, then died after spending age 12-60 not going to church, never mentioning Jesus, showing no evidence of being a Christian, must be awarded a positive sermon at his funeral based solely on family resting on that one act of baptism long ago. "He was saved at 12, and has been saved ever since" was too much to swallow. I didn't answer, but waited collecting several other disagreements besides OSAS. Another was they required me to disassociate with friends following Word of Faith ministries and speaking in tongues. The congregation was told to take the marker passed out to them and blot out a large list of offending scriptures. I refused. My sponsoring church kicked out 90 of them out of a membership of 250, literally all the tithers, killing the "spirit" of that church. The pastor ended up selling cars to make ends meet. I ended up joining them instead.

I say all that because over time many of those "good people" in that church came over to ours, all realizing their spiritual condition was not right, even some in leadership many years. It took all that for me to realize all I (I, not the Lord) had done was still lacking the requirement God demands for my salvation. I corrected that and was once again water baptized, that time knowing in my "knower" it was real, far more than all that head knowledge (for which I remain grateful) and doing what men told me to do. One of them had stood in the meeting in which the 90 were named and discarded declaring "We are saved, secure, and satisfied here. If you are not satisfied with what happens inside these doors, there's your door, so go and don't return." He repented of that, but soon died of lung cancer from chain smoking all his life.
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Be fishers of men

Mary : You wrote :

I agree with Sarah that if you can lose it...you never had it to begin with.

A lot of people get this thing all wrong. They don’t consider Jesus capable of rounding up any errant sheep which are His Property. Jesus can and does go out of his way to get errant sheep, (if they are actually HIS sheep).

The verse you might be looking for could be. “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:28-29.

Of course there is one catch for the OSAS brigade. Unless one has been called by The Father and ‘given’ to Jesus, they are not one of Jesus’ sheep. Becoming a Christian, getting saved, etc. is by no means a voluntary affair. Nobody chooses themselves to become one of Jesus' 'little flock'. Those who are called and then also chosen to be servants of Jesus Christ with all the benefits and obligations that that entails can have an ‘assurance of their salvation’. this is a Gift of God. Their assurance however would be presumptuous unless they were willing to persevere along with the rest of the saints, in living the way Jesus Christ taught and demonstrated during his life on earth.

It is worth remembering though that once anyone becomes a 'servant of The Lord', they come under HIS discipline thereafter. He disciplines 'those he loves'. " And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more". Luke 12:46-48 RSV

I take this to mean that 'believers' may not actually face perdition but they may certainly face some hard discipline for our deliberate and knowing failings. That is why it is always better to admit our faults daily, repent and reform under the Holy Spirit's Gracious guidance.

Another verse worth knowing and often wrongly interpreted and quoted with regard to OSAS, is this : For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38

Notice what is not mentioned in Paul’s list.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5:20 - 25 KJV

So it seems pretty clear that once God has called, chosen and given into the care of Jesus, nothing external from yourself can separate you from the love of God or take you out of the hand of Jesus. No temptation will be beyond your capacity to resist, (so long as you remain in HIM). He has only ever lost one of his sheep. But just try escaping from Jesus once you are truly HIS. It's one sure way to find out just how difficult life can really get, until he gets you back in the fold again.

It is also pretty clear that if a person continues to ‘choose’ to develop bad fruit such as listed in Paul’s second list and refuses to accept the sanctifying power provided by The Holy Spirit in producing fruit fit for the edification of others, then Paul is very clear on the point that they shall not inherit a place in the 'Kingdom of God'. Even if by some chance they did, they obviously would not enjoy it because they ‘preferred’ a dissolute life to the one God could have helped them achieve by simply accepting HIS Way of grace and sanctification.

Anyone that has been so determined to escape from the love of God will have no one to blame but themselves for the consequences they may face resulting from their decision.

Regards Chris.

This doctrine of once saved, saved forever is anti-Christ - I think so!

1Cortinthians 10:12 ''Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall''.

The Bible is full of images that help us to understand the Christian life: we are part of the army of God, engaged in battle; we are part of the body of Christ; we are Christ's ambassadors, his envoys, representing him in this world; we are a building, being built up into Christlikeness; we are branches, Christ is the vine; we are the bride of Christ; we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world. All of these analogies are rich and useful.My favorite analogy, however, compares the Christian life to running a race. This analogy is not common throughout the Bible, but Paul loves it, as he uses the running and racing image at least nine times in his epistles.

PHILIPPIANS 3:12-14 '' I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.'' Paul was teaching the Philippians about pressing on toward the goal, not losing sight of the finish line.
I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us up to heaven.
Note these words of discipline: I go straight for the goal - my reward the honour of being .... Figuratively used of one who like a runner in a race runs swiftly to reach the goal and thus to pursue a goal. He becomes a winning athlete by getting into the game and competing with all manners of disciplines if his/her goal is winning.
Another version of Philippians 3:13-14
No, dear brothers and sisters, I am still not all I should be, but I am focusing all my energies on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us up to heaven.

Cn we imagine this apostle who was so conscious of the consequences of backsliding, being disciplined and determined?

''Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfected; but I follow after, if I may get hold of that for which Christ got hold of me.

Brethren, I count not myself to have attained it; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forward to those things that are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.''


Do you ever think when a man is converted, when he's saved, why doesn't he then in the assignment of God, just sit down and bask in the grace and goodness of the Lord who delivered him out of the punishment and peril and judgment of his sins. He's a Christian. He's saved now. Why not just be seated and be comfortable and enjoy it?
No! To be saved is like joining an army. It is like putting on an uniform. It is like entering the struggle. It is like fighting! It is like marching! There's strife and struggle in the will of God in our church and in our spiritual lives.
I think of our church in its unusual situation now. You could easily sell these properties far beyond fifty millions of dollars. Why don't we sell them and go out to the green pastures somewhere and all of us be seated and just bask in the goodness and favor of God that enables us to do such an easy thing? Instead, God wills [that] we stay in the heart of the city and in the very center of its life, seeking to magnify His glorious name in a busy and worldly climate, situation, society, culture. We're here to fight and to strive for God, and that is God's blessing.


It is not because God hated us or despised us that thus He set us in a place of struggle and effort. It is the blessing of the Lord upon us.

If a mere man, God's creation is so disciplined in a worldly competition, what about you and I in an eternal one?

I am a Pentecostal Christian and we strongly believe that the doctrine of once saved, saved forever is false doctrine. It is also considered as end-time falsehood. Remember false doctrine uses the original Scriptures to cunningly fabricate the flse one.
menangjoshua

Very good comment, ngwang. Welcome aboard.

menangjoshua......I've seen "menang" somewhere, maybe as in a dance. Just curious. Let me guess. Dancing in Yeshua Jesus.
Blessings, Jim
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Be fishers of men

So basically what you're saying is that this individuals salvation was dependent on works? I have to disagree there. Sorry. The reason being is because anyone can act like a good Christian and not actually be Christian at all. Also, being saved was never based on works but on faith. If it was based on works we would be constantly unsaved. So, every time someone misses church they would be unsaved according to your line of thought? Just trying to understand where you're coming from. =o)

So are we supposed to be perfect upon being saved and never be capable of sinning again? And then if we do sin we are either doomed to hell or have to get saved again?

Some people think the apostle Paul had a raging debate with the apostle James. It didn't happen. Both of them had to deal with the Jews who were coming out of a 1700 year religion of 100% works of the law. Both agree works of the law can't save. But both explain how Abraham was accounted justification by both faith and works that "fit" or are "meet" for faith unto salvation and for all other uses for faith in our lives. He believed God, but he also went in to Sarah in his old age to father a child, and he raised the knife to sacrifice Isaac. Those were works meet for faith that pleased God. Those works proved beyond a doubt Abraham believed, that he was not merely in mental assent with God.

"Having faith" alone makes that a mental exercise. Nobody can think their way to salvation. I call that "navel gazing", like trying to get somewhere through meditation.

There are various kinds of works. Works of God. Works of the Devil. Works of the law. Works of man's hands. Works of darkness. Good works. Works of righteousness.

Now on to an answer. Nobody here is saying salvation is based on works. All agree salvation is based on faith. However, James declared rightly that faith by itself is dead, ineffectual, if appropriate works are not in attendance. I didn't author that. Paul emphasized that some of those works I listed can't make faith come alive.

Salvation and faith unto salvation is not based on "to sin" or "not to sin". Sin has consequences, but guilt of sins we commit was removed on the cross of Jesus. From then on we are to forgive others, keep repenting of deliberate sin (actively resist/forsake sins God brings to your attention), knowing God forgives us continually, with Jesus our High Priest forever making intercession for us. Your daily sins don't affect salvation by grace through faith, having put your trust in Christ alone. That isn't a license to sin. The children of God are taught of God, learning to fear Him, that as we grow in Christ we all the more grow to hate sin and love righteousness. If you resist sin you perform a work of righteousness, a work meet for faith, pleasing God, a work that will not burn up when judged by Christ.

Now, putting it all in perspective, when a person comes to Christ believing, the first acts of obedience is confession of Christ before other people, then water baptism. Both of those are works.

Acts 2:[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

None could be saved just standing there believing in agreement with Peter. They had to take some actions, like we all have to do upon calling upon the name of the Lord.

Jesus said in Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He also warned in Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What do you think of that word "endure"? A famous book "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" goes a long way toward defining what Jesus meant. Almost entirely the works of the martyrs for Christ bore testimony of their faith, all who endured to the end.

One other scripture for you to study out...Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
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Now dear one, I hope you read through before coming to this scripture that otherwise sometimes strikes fear in people. Paul wrote this to the Church at Philippi, couched in words of joy and love.

Philip. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

By now you should instead be embracing that command with joy. Because Christ is in you, doing a work He began in you, being a child of God makes you yearn to do works of righteousness for Jesus instead of following after the flesh. From that verse, presented here in proper context of the whole text, I am confident the Spirit will show you that a mere mental agreement isn't what Jesus was looking for. He is looking for a changed life. Paying daily attention to such things as Paul wrote to the Philippians will erase your concerns over missing the mark here and there. The big picture is to keep your eyes forward on Jesus, instead of contemplating some sin. Almost as a side issue the Lord will deal quietly with each sin while you deal with what He says for you to do with life.
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Mary : You asked a couple of (perhaps rhetorical), questions which I am assuming were addressed to anyone interested.

So are we supposed to be perfect upon being saved and never be capable of sinning again?

Noah was ‘perfect’ Gen. 6:9. Abram was told by God to be ‘perfect’. Gen. 17:1. The whole Israelite Nation was told by God to be ‘perfect’. Deut. 18:13. David declared that God had ‘made his way ‘perfect’. 2 Sam. 22:33. Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his days.1 Kings 15:14. Job was ‘perfect’. Job 1:1, 1:8, 2:3. ‘Perfect’ peace is obtained by those whose mind is stayed on God’. Isa. 26:3.

We are all told by Jesus to be ‘perfect’. ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect’. Matt. 5:48

There should be no room in a disciple of Jesus for self satisfied complacency with regard to our daily conduct toward God and others. Unless we strive for ‘perfection‘ then we are ‘failing our calling’. Unless we fail each and every day to reach ‘perfection’ but yet still hunger and thirst after righteousness, then we will not ever be filled. Matt. 5:6

It is God who gives us our ‘daily bread’ and also ‘forgives us our trespasses’ to the same extent as we forgive others. ‘Perfection’ therefore is achieved by perfectly forgiving, (just as God perfectly forgave US Luke 23:34). There is nothing impossible or unreasonable in that proposition, just difficult in some circumstances. That is where ‘prayer’ is most needed and the closest presence of God is most felt at the place of most pain. Like the pain God must have felt at Calvary.

God is ‘perfect’ and He expects no less than that from us. God wants us to be like Him. He also has promised to freely give us all we need to achieve it, in Jesus Christ, through the power of The Holy Spirit.

Dovegiven is right. Don’t count ‘perfection’ an impossible dream, an unreachable goal, an unreasonable demand of a strict and unhelpful 'Father'.

Seize it by force. Demand it from God in the Power of ‘faith’. Step out with the panoply of the armor of God, armed with the two edged sword of His Word. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.

You say (Rhetorically I hope). : And then if we do sin we are either doomed to hell or have to get saved again?

Nope! Neither are actually true anyway. Devil's Lies! No one is ‘doomed to hell for sinning’, only for ‘blaspheming The Holy Spirit’, and then not for certain, only 'in danger of it'. Mark 3:29 Jesus died ‘to take away the sin of the World’ John 1:29, To PROPITIATE (to render God favorable toward us). And not just for us ‘believers’ only but also for THE WHOLE WORLD. 1 John 2:2. But those who 'know' Jesus keep his commands.


Nobody is perfect yet, but Jesus, and those that have gone before to be with him where he is.

If anyone say he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Jesus Christ is the only human being ever to die without sin. You and me sister are liars if we say we don’t have any sin.

WE will never BE perfect in this life. But I know a man who IS and HE will see to it that I (as his servant) will stand at the end and overcome. If there is a battle going on within me then it is HE who will win it, not I. I have determined that HE has my permission to ensure that I am never allowed to jeopardize my heavenly home with Him. It is now HE that lives in me, and He is an overcomer par excellence.

So : No need to 'get saved again'. We were not 'saved' in the first place by 'refraining from sin', For by grace we are saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We are saved by THE GRACE of GOD.

That GRACE does not somehow stop just because we may be temporarily in unrepentant sin.

That GRACE goes to work all the more on our behalf, to rebuke us (Phil. 2:15), drag us up out of the mire (2 Pet. 2:22), wash us down (Heb 10:22) and get us in 'our right mind' i.e. (the mind of Christ). Mark 5:15, Luke 8:35 1Cor. 2:16. Repentance is a sign of God's GRACE. A gift of God to the sinner and the saint.

WE are called upon to come to the assistance of those who have fallen by the wayside. The Children of Israel (the church of God), can only march at the pace of the smallest child and weakest person. It might take us 40 years wandering to get there together, but at least we should get there together - saints, sinners and all. God does not want a heaven full of Holy Joes. I think God would be quite satisfied with a heaven full of helpful sinners. "Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins". 1 Pet. 4:8

If our consciences rebuke us, we should praise God, repent and learn from our mistakes.

To keep doing the same thing expecting different results each time is a sign of real stupidity.

Regards Chris.

Okay...now you're making sense! *Smiles*

Ok, I have a question pertaining to this remark...

"Of course there is one catch for the OSAS brigade. Unless one has been called by The Father and ‘given’ to Jesus, they are not one of Jesus’ sheep. Becoming a Christian, getting saved, etc. is by no means a voluntary affair. Nobody chooses themselves to become one of Jesus' 'little flock'. Those who are called and then also chosen to be servants of Jesus Christ with all the benefits and obligations that that entails can have an ‘assurance of their salvation’. this is a Gift of God. Their assurance however would be presumptuous unless they were willing to persevere along with the rest of the saints, in living the way Jesus Christ taught and demonstrated during his life on earth."

Now, this assurance of their salvation...does it not have anything to do with predestination?

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
2 Thessalonians 2:13

If this is the case then how would it be possible to lose one's salvation?

I got so involved with that last post I totally forgot I had wanted to post this because it explains the point I was trying to make.

http://www.sermonindex.net/...=article&aid=686

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"By now you should instead be embracing that command with joy. Because Christ is in you, doing a work He began in you, being a child of God makes you yearn to do works of righteousness for Jesus instead of following after the flesh."

That is what I'm talking about. You don't just become perfect immediately. It's something that happens over time as the Lord works in you. The more we grow in Christ the less desire we have for the appetites of the flesh.

See how many wordy posts it took me to say what you wrote in few words: That is what I'm talking about. You don't just become perfect immediately. It's something that happens over time as the Lord works in you. The more we grow in Christ the less desire we have for the appetites of the flesh.


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I certainly hope you're right but, I don't agree.

"12. thinketh he standeth--stands and thinks that he stands [BENGEL]; that is, stands "by faith . . . well pleasing" to God; in contrast to 1 Corinthians 10:5 , "with many of them God was not well pleased" ( Romans 11:20 ).
fall--from his place in the Church of God (compare 1 Corinthians 10:8 , "fell"). Both temporally and spiritually ( Romans 14:4 ). Our security, so far as relates to God, consists in faith; so far as relates to ourselves, it consists in fear."

I retrieved this off of a bible study site. This seems to be speaking about the relationship of faith between man and God. I don't see anywhere in this where it says anything about losing ones salvation.

There's an intriguing chapter covering this, with Paul dealing with a problem brewing among the churches, in this case specifically at Corinth. The problem was and remains a pesky doubting of the resurrection of Christ, which is pivotal concerning the power of the gospel to save from our sins.

Here's the first part, and I hope everyone studies the whole chapter.
1 Cor. 15:[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; .....

There is no Bible promise of "Get your ticket to Heaven then don't worry about a thing." There are requirements for every receiver of the gospel of Christ, and none of them should instill fear or pose a heavy burden.

We learn from this chapter the gospel is preached according to the license of God towards all who will hear it, by grace), that people can hear and believe it from deep within us (our "heart"), obey it, and not forget it. How complicated is the gospel?

It is simply, as listed in this chapter:

1. Jesus died for our sins
2. Jesus was buried (carrying the curse of sin with Him)
3. Jesus rose from the grave, defeating death as well as the curse of sin, as witnessed by many, some of whom remained alive to testify at the time Paul wrote that.

I will note that missionaries for Christ have in fact carried the gospel to every part of Earth, and even Bibles have been printed in many remote tribal languages. But when a people as a whole reject the message of God, choosing a life of communism, or tolerating despotic atheist dictators, they are considered like Esau, despising their "birthright". So it is that many people today have not heard the gospel, or the name of Jesus, being cursed by their parents. The principle is from God, who gave for an example the population of Ai in Joshua 8. Jesus also charged His disciples not to persist in delivering the gospel when a population rejected them and their message, telling them to shame the people by shaking the dust off their shoes and departing, found in Mt 10:14.

Once the gospel is delivered there is no guarantee the descendants of those rejecting it will hear it preached again, yet all are accountable to God for having heard it. The nation of India (Hindustan) had wisdom to at least permit adding an image of Jesus to the array of gods and goddesses on display in the homes, adding the gospel in. Their ancestors didn't curse them, so today the gospel is preached there and millions hear, believe, and are born again Christians.

But still, it all goes back to 1 Cor 15 and the warning not to forget the gospel of Jesus.

To put it in perspective....I once heard a recent college graduate say she was only interested in finding a good job where "they pay me". Her concept of a coveted work career came after years of witnessing people holding down a position at a corporation, but never working, just receiving paychecks for showing up and staying around.

That attitude toward salvation by faith through this 2000 years of grace administration will not cut it with God, just as many employers are ditching such empty "work" positions. So yes, there is a certain "fear" that is healthy for us, concerning our eternal security, which ought only be applied to how we respond to God.
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dovegiven...
What you're speaking of is the receiving of salvation. You're not speaking of the keeping of the gift. There are a lot of people who claim to be saved but, they are no different at all than before and show no outward sign of change or any attempt at it. I believe that those who are truly saved are given the desire to do good and to improve. That their desire for wrong diminishes more and more all the time. However, when we don't stay in the word we do tend to wander away. But, God doesn't let go when we do that. He still has ahold of us.

Mary

Here dovegiven...this is what I'm talking about...this quote is from a devotional I receive from Greg Laurie in my email.

But what happens when we live God's way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments, not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely (THE MESSAGE).

I truly do not believe that if one is truly saved that God would take that away. Instead...He adds to that gift by helping us to grow in our spiritual walk each and every day. Some days we may forget to water the tree so to speak. You know what I mean? *Smiles*

I agree completely. God will never take salvation back. It is an inescapable fact, though, that even if once a believer in Christ it is not only possible, but likely, that the "unbeliever" will part with the gift of God. There is a great chasm of difference between a person having not ever believed, and one who stops believing. Doubt creeps in, plus starvation for the spiritual food of the word of God, resulting in unbelief. We have a great promise that no external power can separate us from that gift of God, but there is ample evidence internal rejection can come after having once believed the gospel. The verse I quoted from Paul makes that abundantly clear. Keep the gospel, by which we are saved by faith in that message, in memory, not forsaking the Lord before men. Those who keep that as priority in life will be saved, having endured to the end.
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dovegiven:

Hi. If God gives us a heart to do the right thing after we've been saved and He gives us a heart to want to grow closer to Him and get into His word more, then I can't really believe that this same individual would internally turn away and then be allowed to walk away from God.
I appreciate everyone's input in this thread. God bless you all.

There was a real-life reason for Paul to write this:
1 Cor. 10:[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

[14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

I believe that. I believe that if I ignore an escape route (that God will always provide for every temptation) provided by God to avoid a temptation, then I have only myself to blame. Like God didn't excuse those folks of ancient days, who freshly had the Law, who soon tempted Christ and sinned other ways, we have that warning.

The moment I think I stand is the moment to be on strongest guard against temptation. It is folly to take salvation "for granted".

None of us is so perfect that we don't sin occasionally, requiring new repentance, making a decided and permanent change of direction away from whatever activity might result in sin. But now we are warned to FLEE from certain sins. If commanded to flee from them, then we can be certain they will come around.
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Hi. If God gives us a heart to do the right thing after we've been saved and He gives us a heart to want to grow closer to Him and get into His word more, then I can't really believe that this same individual would internally turn away and then be allowed to walk away from God.

Mary :

I wonder if we are looking at this from our mortal, time bound point of view rather than with God’s eternal perspective.

When a person reaches that point in time when they realize and understand that God has already done everything necessary for their eternal salvation, and that all they need to do is accept that fact and appreciate it by loving others the way God has loved us, then a new creature has emerged. This metamorphosis was brought about by God. It is called ‘regeneration’ and usually follows on from ‘repentance and faith’.

It is supposedly the point in time that God has decided that ‘on balance’ the deeds of a lifetime add up to ‘righteousness’ on the grounds that the ‘LIFE’ that GOD imparts from that point on will ‘compensate’ for the lack of ‘righteousness’ beforehand. Only God knows beforehand the outcome of that person's whole life.

It is my guess that from that point onward until the end of a life on earth God has put the seal of approval generally upon that person. Any bad deeds following on from that moment of metamorphosis will be aberrations only which can be confessed, repented of and eschewed. Provided, that is, however, the conscience is not ‘seared’. 1 Tim 4:2

New Testament scripture is however littered with examples of people who had begun well as ‘believers’ but who clearly ‘departed from the truth’. That is why I do not go along with the OSAS tendency as preached in some churches in the USA. "Love God and do as you please" may be a true saying of St Augustine but it requires quite a lot of explanation to those who would ignorantly use it as a license to sin.

What complicates the issue is that the church has never been and still is not composed of only converted and regenerate people.The New Testament clearly shows us that. Numbers of unregenerate people received baptism, partook of The Lord’s Supper, and for longer or shorter periods exercised various ministries, holding sometimes the most important offices.

Judas was one of the band of Apostles, and it seems that later other Apostles were guilty of defection (2 Cor.11:4 f., 13; Gal.2:6)

In the Church and in the midst of the Christians there were false brethren, false teachers, and amongst the most eminent, false apostles who preached a different Christ, a different gospel, a different spirit (2 Cor. 11:4 f.,13, 26;Gal 1:6-9; 2:4-6; 1 Tim. 4:2; 2 Pet. 2 - a chapter which is entirely devoted to them).

It is a big mistake to assume that the early church was some sort of ‘ideal’ to which we can contemplate a ‘return to’. As an ‘ideal’ it never existed. The visible church has since it’s foundation existed as a mixed body of people, only some of whom are regenerated and elect. There are weeds in the wheatfield but it is not our job to uproot them. That will be the job of Christ and His Angels.

Incidentally any attempt at trying to 'purify' the church on earth is doomed to failure. Many denominations and sects have tried it and it always ends in failure. Clearly GOD does not want the church to be 'spotless and without wrinkle YET a while'

What God wants is for us as individuals and as church to 'live according to the Truth'. Gal. 2:14.

Regards Chris.

That was an interesting comment, mostly backed by scripture, which I appreciate. It would be nice to see that (copiously) for It is supposedly the point in time that God has decided that ‘on balance’ the deeds of a lifetime add up to ‘righteousness’ on the grounds that the ‘LIFE’ that GOD imparts from that point on will ‘compensate’ for the lack of ‘righteousness’ beforehand. Only God knows beforehand the outcome of that person's whole life.


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New Testament scripture is however littered with examples of people who had begun well as ‘believers’ but who clearly ‘departed from the truth’. That is why I do not go along with the OSAS tendency as preached in some churches in the USA. "Love God and do as you please" may be a true saying of St Augustine but it requires quite a lot of explanation to those who would ignorantly use it as a license to sin.

See this is where I disagree. This "love God and do as you please" logic is not accurate. And I don't believe that is the basis for OSAS. I simply believe that once you're saved...God isn't going to throw you away if you sin. If you're claiming to be saved and yet you're just sinning willy nilly all over the place and thinking that's ok then yeah...you've got the wrong idea. But, if you make a mistake and ask forgiveness and repent of the sin, I truly believe that God will give you the desire to continue to make every effort to do the right thing. Do you see what I'm getting at here Chris?

This was one of the saddest comments I've read on OSAS. Years ago, while preparing for licensing with a denomination that taught OSAS, I remembered being saved at age as a child and even had a call of God on my life. However, there was a period of time when I did not even think about God. One day, though, I felt returned to God and have been building my relationship ever since. We can think perhaps I was not truly saved as a child -- but I remember the sense of God speaking to my heart...the desire to read the Bible...the desire to attend church...the desire to share with others. I know I was saved. I also know that allowing troubles and stuff of life, maybe even apathy led me away. It can only be called backsliding. Today, I am grateful for that God loved me enough to not leave me in that condition, but restored me to Life.

Back to your comments. It is for those in denominations like you mentioned that I continue to pray and work. "Be sure," I remind them. "Ask his forgiveness when you sin. Don't expect him to overlook it." Pray for them. Speak out.
Blessings
Dell

May I please come in with my thoughts about OSAS?

Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. Tyndale House Publishers. (2007). Holy Bible : New Living Translation. (3rd ed.) (Jud 24). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

I believe if you are saved and are a "backslider" then you are most miserable cause Abba is going to chastise you. He will not let his get away with it. Everyone that is His he corrects. If Jesus could not Keep you then would He not have to die in the cross over and over for your sins?
Jesus said that all that the Father has given Him He has kept and no one can pluck them out of His hand.

This is my "Philosophy" on OSAS to those who wish to argue about the subject. "I was once lost and know what that is like, but, now I'm saved and know how wonderful how it is to be a child of The King, so why should I ever want to walk away from Him if I could?"
Bless the Lord, the Blessed One
Power, Honor and Glory to His Name

Chaplain Dave

MaryPankratz :

Do you see what I'm getting at here Chris?

Yes I do understand. St Augustine said "Love God and do as you please", and I agree with him. If you 'Love God' how could you 'go on sinning willy nilly'. It forms a logical absurdity. Which is exactly what St Augustine was getting at.

St John said. "If anyone sins, we have and advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and HE is the propitiation for our sins".

So what you say is correct. Those who love God can repent and be forgiven. If we 'Love' God it is obvious that it will concern us greatly if we have offended. That 'concern' is generated by the Holy Spirit within us.

For those who do not 'Love' God, it is of no real importance, (in their estimation), if they offend Him. (Blasphemers take note). The fact of simply not caring if God is offended by their deeds indicates that they don't love Him. Those who don't love God 'fear him', though they may put on a pretense of bravado which might convince the undiscerning, they in fact are afraid (perfect love casts out fear). Sadly their fear is usually ill founded, misguided and ignorant, (their concept of 'God' being primitive and ill formed). Such people are quite unlikely to have experienced a genuine 'conversion' and are therefore 'unsaved' (I prefer the term unregenerate i.e. not yet 'a new creature in Christ').

It will be very hard to find a 'regenerate' person who has problems 'repenting' of sin, accepting forgiveness and avoiding the same mistakes again.

Regards Chris.

Post #28 This was one of the saddest comments I've read on OSAS

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Welcome to the forum. I liked your comment, but have no idea what you referred to. We have come upon a way to help sort discussions, such as the above, coloring a statement of yours blue or putting in quotes, and preferably mentioning which post number it was found in. That way each of us has a more precise basis for discussion.

As for my involvement with "those" folks, I was told they didn't want our prayers or any further involvement with them (work), due to disagreement over some key doctrines like OSAS. All efforts toward licensing/ordination was stopped officially the night my wife and I stood with about 90 other members. Our names were taken off the SBC membership rolls immediately.

I do realize the difference between backsliding and unbelief. Of course, backsliding is subject to forgiveness upon repentance. Unbelief includes both never believing, doubt cancelling belief, and abandonment of belief in God's salvation plan. An example of that is a Christian deciding to become a Muslim, denouncing Jesus as lord and savior, Son of God. If that person dies in that decision, that person is lost. Denouncing Christ by itself is a dire situation for anyone. On the low end of the scale, people not believing on Christ, rejecting the gospel of Christ, and living wantonly in sin and probably proud of their sins, behave worse than the devils, which believe and tremble. Such people will receive as much or more damnation than demons and Satan deserve. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. That happens to be one of the most terrifying warnings in the scriptures, aimed at people assuming they are saved by belief alone. Mere belief is not enough, but probably most people identifying with Christ believe it is enough.


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This is exactly my point. He will correct us because we are His children but, He will not cast us away like trash.

So, are you saying that you still don't agree with the OSAS doctrine? Because what you just said is basically the same as what I said in an earlier post. And I don't know why you threw in a St. Augustine quote considering the fact that I haven't been Catholic since high school and I've never given any real credence to the Saints. St. Augustine and his thoughts have nothing to do with what I believe. Just saying. *Smiles*

I would like to point out that folks don't write and talk like St. Augustine of Hippo did when saying "Love God and do as you please." Today the average person would interpret that to mean we are free to do whatever can be done, as long as we love God. But that isn't the message. 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
IF a person truly loves God, which is our primary commandment to do to know we are in Christ, and He is in us, then that person will desire to do all the commandments of Christ, which moves on from the first to the second commandment to love neighbor, and perhaps a third to love our enemies, etc. then we will be safe to do as we please, which will be according to the word of God in us. We will be pleasing to God to behave as taught in scriptures, living willingly according to the moral boundaries God has set for us.

If a person says they are a Christian, yet keeps up a lifetime of habitual sin, then they are not at all obeying the first commandment of Christ. They are a "free agent" making their own way like a sports star without a home team, regardless of whatever they have experienced spiritually.

The acid test for anyone thinking they are born again and doubtless headed for eternal life includes:
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
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"Love Christ and do as you please" is an oxymoron.
As you say, we are in Him and He in us...
I am dead and Christ lives His life out through me.
End of story.
Blessings ~ Sarah

WHAT?

You said it in 35 or less words!

Nice.
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So what you are saying is that I sure know how to throw cold water on a good discussion? LOLOL
Blessings ~ Sarah

I haven't read every word above, so I apologize if this has been asked before.

If OSAS is true, why are there so many warnings to the churches?
Not to mention all of Jesus' warnings in the gospels.