I am fascinated by the concept of Near Death Experiences (NDEs). It raises so many questions and borders on providing so many answers. When the body stops, does life go on? Is consciousness a function of the brain, or does it exist on it’s own? Why do people who are clinically dead and are revived report a state of enhanced consciousness? How can a person experience themselves and others during a time when their bodies are completely non-functioning?



One argument is that perhaps the brain is still functioning but the function simply isn’t measurable by our current technology. An example given is a woman who was in a coma who was found to have some level of perception. It’s not a good element to bring into a discussion of NDEs because in a coma there is still breathing and circulation, functions controlled by the brain. So parts of the brain are still functioning in a comatose patient. In a NDE there is nothing going on in the body.



So who are you really? Are you a composite of your body’s neuro-chemical activity? Or do you exist, even when your body doesn’t?



Dr Pim Van Lommel is a cardiologist whose studies of NDEs have been published in the prestigious Lancet medical journal: Volume 358, Issue 9298, Pages 2039-2045 if you care to look it up. You can also catch an interview with him at http://www.youtube.com/user/KMVT



So what do you think? Why do you think? How do you think? And why don't the reported experiences of the afterlife fit the traditional Christian understanding of what it must be like over yonder?



Rob

Personal experiences tell me a lot of the answers you are looking for and yes the near death or after death experience is real.

The question you ask concerning the these experiences that have been related and do not measure up to the Biblical accounts of heaven is perhaps the most valid one concerning these times.



If you are going to be caught up in these expressions you must know what the Bibile puts forth as conditions on these times.



My wife & I have discussed these on numerous occasions because of her job as an editor. Some of the projects she has been involved in have been best sellers and yet cannot match up to the accounts that are Biblical of heavenly things.Best sellers on this subject are not determined by being perfectly aligned with the Bible but give themselves more to attraction in the soulish realm. An excellent example of this type thing was the "LEFT BEHIND" SERIES ALL NOVELS BUT MANY,MANY PEOPLE TOOK THEM AS LITERAL BIBLE REPLAYS OF THE END TIMES. There are several accounts of these heavenily experiences that get caught up in the scenery of heaven and personages that are there other than Jesus. That can't given any value because Jesus is the center of the kingdom.

I hope this little bit helps some but I cannot answer the balance of your questions which are very good and have caused me to examine some things I have experienced very carefully.

m7th

Hey m7th,

I agree with you regarding the fictional accounts of the hereafter. It's what sells!



But does the NDE experience validate anything? Is it also fiction or did these people actually experience something during the time that their bodies were lifeless? Is the 7th Day Adventist right, and that this experience is nothing more than a devilish delusion? (At what point do we stop attributing stuff to satan and start looking for actual answers?) How would the mechanics of that work? A trauma happens to your body to the point where life-supporting functions end. The soul goes to sleep. The body is repaired to the point where it can support life again. The soul immediately awakens but satan slips in a false experience about tunnels and lights, warmth and love, and deceased relatives. Hmmmm!



Rob

Rob

You must be careful about your response to these situations because many are very real and true to the Bible.

Just as many of these are false and lies to some degree you must be very careful and use a Biblical plumline to judge them and the Lord expects you to judge them by his word.

I have had several experiences of this nature and 2 that were delusions but after a careful time of prayer and fasting in the Holy Spirit I was able to see the lack of truth in these experiences and reject them.

These "NDE" occassions are no different than dreams people have and want assurance as to whether they were from the Lord or not.



Remember you as a believer have the right & responsibilty to judge this from the word and the Lord expects you to.

As far as the demonic goes that is the purpose of the Holy Spirit in guiding you through the Word to truth

prodigal2 (prodigal2) :



So what do you think? Why do you think? How do you think? And why don't the reported experiences of the afterlife fit the traditional Christian understanding of what it must be like over yonder?





I think it is not really possible to decide based entirely on other peoples experiences. A decision one way or another might more rationally be based upon one’s own experience, but these are apparently rare. I have been anesthetised, (but not clinically dead), three times in my life but have no out of body experiences to report. I don’t know if anyone has reported OOB experiences under anesthetic, has anyone else?



It is quite possible that a person returning from death relates a real experience, as far as they are concerned but in fact all our real experiences are constructed by our brain and do not actually represent reality per se. Our perceptions are very much reconstructed reality as many illusions and illusionists successfully demonstrate. We largely experience what we expect to experience, not necessarily what actually happens. And this is true in even our fully conscious state. No doubt it is possible that a resuscitated brain could 'construct' apparent 'memory' spontaneously. Who knows?



As to why the afterlife described by NDE observers usually conforms to their cultural and religious expectations rather than any specifically ‘Christian’ concept of what Heaven might be like, I think the afterlife, (if there is one), is quite unlike anything anyone is capable of describing.



The Bible contains hardly any descriptions of what 'Heaven' is actually like. Most of what might appear to be descriptions are metaphorical anthropomorphism and attempts to relate the inexplicable in everyday understandable terms.



Even Jesus Christ used phrases such as ‘The kingdom of heaven is like unto or preceded his answer with 'How shall I describe it?', as if He was having difficulty in doing so, and then went on to describe in terrestrial terms, concepts which can only be described in metaphors and similes. Not surprising then that people describe their ND experiences in terms that they are sociologically and religiously familiar with. How could they describe something they have never before experienced except through similes that only 'more or less' accurately convey the truth of what they are trying to describe?



I wonder what imagery a true atheist who has had no ‘Christian’ or other religious ‘pre-programming’ would use to describe a NDE? Are there any reports of such? What 'imagery' might they use? An atheist who was brought up 'Christian' might use Christian concepts and imagery as being 'closest' to describing the experience. An atheist brought up as a Hindu might use Hindu imagery, but most 'non-religious' people seem to report meeting 'departed family' and going through a dark tunnel into light. All these are experiences quite common to all people regardless of race, creed or social norms.



So I believe that NDE's prove nothing about an afterlife. Everything we assume to be so regarding 'heaven' is based entirely on faith, and necessarily so since 'we walk by faith, not by sight..' There will be no proof.



Incidentally most 'modern' religious NDE concepts can be found in the Tibetan Book of The Dead, for those who care to study it.



Over here an interesting study has taken place to try to obtain objective data on NDE's. A hospital operating theater has had easily recognizable symbols stuck to the floor where the patient would be incapable of seeing them unless actually viewing them from above. Any possible NDE patient is then interviewed and asked if they can describe anything of what they could see when 'outside' their body. Unfortunately I have no idea what the results (if any) of this study have revealed.



Find it here . . http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h[...]608.stm



Regards Chris.

Hi Rob:

Quote:"One argument is that perhaps the brain is still functioning but the function simply isn’t measurable by our current technology. An example given is a woman who was in a coma who was found to have some level of perception."

Well....our 'current technology is pretty 'sensitive'...sounds like a 'reach'...since you yourself specified that there were NO clinical indications of life.



Coma is an entirely different kettle of fish. The daughter of a friend was T-boned by a semi that ran a stop sign one night, some years ago...23 yrs old...everything to live for...heading for managership of McDonalds (which ironically enough...pays VERY well)....her family was told she wasn't expected to live...airlifted to Vancouver to a larger hospital. There were literally hundreds of people....maybe thousands...praying for her....including some who had no concept of prayer or 'God'....just a form of 'higher power'.



Then the Dr's told her folks that IF she survived...she'd be a vegetable for the rest of her life.



She was in a coma from mid December...to....well...I'm getting ahead of myself. I remember praying...and saying...:"God...you do it in YOUR time....BUT...it sure would be nice if she regained consciousness for New Years Day.

On New Year's Day....she opened her eyes...and regained consciousness...fully cognizant. (she subsequently recovered...somewhat...largely wheelchair bound...and like a stroke victim...one side of her body doesn't work well)



HOWEVER....she told us afterward...that she heard and remembered EVERY THING that was said in her room....the Dr's and nurses joking around....the Dr's saying she wasn't going to live....that she'd be a vegetable...etc. Was I EVER glad that when we were there...we just held her hand...spoke positive, life-affirming words to her...etc...read to her...prayed for her, etc.



Incidentally...and sorta in line with what Chris asked about...I've read of some who've been 'anesthetized'....and could NOT communicate....but the anesthetic did NOT take hold...and they felt EVERYTHING of their surgery....the excruciating pain as the surgeon sliced them open...etc.



It seems that many of these experiences are triggered by the proximity...or possibility of death...rather than a clinical death per se...which opens up ever MORE questions.



However...an author (I can't remember his name) was a hospital chaplain....and often being there at the hospital...WHEN a patient was resuscitated...had many 'come to'....scared out of their wits....terror-stricken...at the horrendous experience they'd undergone....no tunnel....no white light...no peace....but something so horrible...filled with blood-curdling screaming...etc....that they were thrilled to be 'back'. A day or two later...when he came back to visit them....they had no memory of what they'd recounted to him.....the experience they'd said they underwent. The conscious/subconscious mind is fully capable of 'blanking'...or...'deleting' from our minds...experiences that are just too terrible to 'hold'.

He encountered (I believe) some hundreds of these souls...who'd experienced a horrific 'NDE'.....and surmised that we mostly hear about the 'wonderful' experiences because of this propensity of the mind to blank bad experiences out.



Also...re Chris....many of these people having EITHER FORM of NDE...come from all backgrounds....INCLUDING non-belief...or atheism. Yes, there are some...like Betty Eadie....whose experiences closely mirrored her Mormon theology....but many, if not most...don't fit the mold of 'traditional Christianity's' theories of the afterlife at all.



I suspect that....for each of us....we will 'understand' a million times better (AND different)....one millisecond after 'passing over' ourselves. Most of what we believe...about the 'afterlife'....or...heaven, is mythological....and NOT 'Biblical' at all....the Bible is largely silent on that subject...in both the OT...AND the NT.



Blessings,

Hey Walt,

You said, "....the Bible is largely silent on that subject...in both the OT...AND the NT." True enough. One theory I'm considering is that life: here in the physical and "there" in the non-physical is just a continuum of the same thing. If we consider that God is the source of everything: the physical, the non-physical, and certainly the source of life then there is no beginning or end to any of it. Some of us base our understanding of how it all works on our interpretation of the Bible. (We are so prone to think our interpretation of Scripture is actual Scripture that we conclude that our paradigm is actual reality.) The whole religious paradigm is just an interpretation. It ain't reality, unfortunately!



So, people die. Thanks to medical science we are able to bring many of them back to this life. Some theorize that what you expect, you get: the Law of Attraction. If our life here is just a part of a continuum then our expectations can't be stale-dated. If you expect judgement, punishment, fire and brimstone when you separate from your body, why shouldn't that be your experience? I'm expecting something akin to what Paul talked about: knowing as I am known; a completion of my journey toward reconcilliation to something that I once knew.



It seems the warmth, light, and love is experienced at the entrance to the other realm of existance. What do you need to do if it is to continue for you once you cross the threshold?



Rob

Rob

If your experience is from the Lord in that threshold you mentioned will have aguide present for you to show to an area designed specifically for you.

I do not talk much about this part of my life because in dwelling on it ny mind can create things that are not part ofwhat happened.

I prefer it to be a beautiful experience I can draw from and despite what others have said there is plenty of Word from the Bible to provide guidance for you.

In this particular subject there are many that will talk about it and the facets of what they saw while in this comatose state

My only thought is that the Lord will provide the door if he wishes you to communicate this part of your life.

It seems the warmth, light, and love is experienced at the entrance to the other realm of existance. What do you need to do if it is to continue for you once you cross the threshold?



Rob and everyone, it seems to me that this question will take people off into another area which, while possibly an interesting discussion, should be taken to another thread.

Thanks.

Any type of reference to a NDE that is not a confrontation with God is usually a dreamed up occasion or an encounter with satanic beings.

Because of the evident desire to leave the door open for other than a Spiritual experience of the heavenly type in this I wish you the best and will opt out here.

To me it is obvious that there is no room for discussion here.

m7th :



Because of the evident desire to leave the door open for other than a Spiritual experience of the heavenly type in this I wish you the best and will opt out here.



What exactly do you imagine 'Spiritual experience of the heavenly type' might actually be like? Since The Bible is fairly reticent on the details of what to expect when entering 'heaven'?



Jesus certainly suggests that 'heaven' is far more varied and 'open to difference' than we previously thought possible.



'In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.'



Surely a sensible reading of the meaning of these verses would indicate that 'heaven' can accommodate all sorts, types and races of people and is not just the preserve of one particular 'religion' which all have to fit into only one 'mansion'. There are MANY mansions in God's house or do you disagree with that? Why so many 'mansions'? Obviously to accommodate the differences of many different peoples.



You may say it is only for 'Christian disciples' but I would then say Jesus asked - "Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother".



My guess is that anyone who does the will of God, as defined by Jesus himself in The Judgment, is counted as 'brethren' to Jesus and therefore counted valid entrants into His Kingdom.



It is entirely HIS call as to whether they were 'God Fearing', not ours.



I therefore expect to see "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And crying with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.



These would be the "whosoevers who did the will of God", not just people who had Spiritual experiences of the heavenly type, (whatever that might mean)



Regards Chris.

Hey m7th,

Only you can decide if you want to leave room for discussion or not.



You said, "Any type of reference to a NDE that is not a confrontation with God is usually a dreamed up occasion or an encounter with satanic beings." How do you know this? What about those who had a NDE and only met an unidentified being of light, or a dead uncle who said it wasn't their time and they'd have to return? Or what about the woman who met a pre-deceased brother without knowing she'd had a pre-deceased brother? Was he a satanic projection, or her actual pre-deceased brother? Do you have the authority and capability to explain to me the difference?



Chris, I found your query about what an atheist might experience in a NDE interesting. First we'd have to find a real atheist: someone who has explored all knowledge, been to every corner of the universe, and can catagorically say that God doesn't exist. Of course atheism is no different than any other belief system. It's a perspective that may or may not be loosely connected to reality. An atheistic believer will likely impact their expectations of what they'll find on the other side, just like any other believer in whatever.



If we reject the option that a NDE is a satanic influence, what else could it be?



Rob

Rob:

Quote;"I found your query about what an atheist might experience in a NDE interesting. First we'd have to find a real atheist: someone who has explored all knowledge, been to every corner of the universe, and can catagorically say that God doesn't exist."

The query is a non-starter to begin with....if Chris' theorem is true....since an atheist's preconception is that there is NO CONSCIOUSNESS...NOTHING SURVIVING DEATH....then...IF an atheist 'died' and was rescuscitated....and IF he 'experienced what he was conditioned to experience, due to his/her beliefs'.....why...then he/she WOULD HAVE NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL!



The reality is that people with atheistic worldviews HAVE had experiences similar to those of believers.....unchurched have had experiences similar to the experiences of others....those who believe in soul sleep have been surprised to find themselves very awake...etc.



PLUS...as I alluded to....studies have been done that showed that approximately 50% of the experiences (of those studied, in the years of the study) were NOT wonderful, fuzzy, warm....feelings of love...beings of light...etc...but were quite horrendous experiences.



Blessings,

Walt, you said:

The query is a non-starter to begin with....if Chris' theorem is true....since an atheist's preconception is that there is NO CONSCIOUSNESS...NOTHING SURVIVING DEATH....then...IF an atheist 'died' and was rescuscitated....and IF he 'experienced what he was conditioned to experience, due to his/her beliefs'.....why...then he/she WOULD HAVE NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL!



OR... the person would not be an atheist in the true sense of the word? Could the experience be used as a measuring stick for atheism?

Gentlemen :

I made that statement in reference to me and what I would accept and i did leave the door open because I cannot decide for anyone else in this NDE debate.

I am simply saying I reached a line that I chose not to cross and thats it. For anyone to demean that decision is a right they really don't have. For equity to continue in these debates a certain level of respect must be left for each person and their opinions.

Of course atheism is no different than any other belief system.



It would seem then, (thinking about it), that atheism involves much more than just merely ‘not believing in any God’s’.



There might be some people who have had no ‘religious’ knowledge from birth, no ‘religious’ upbringing and no interest in ‘religious’ issues. This would however not make them an atheist.



It would simply mean that they had no reason to believe in God’s of any sort until they become convinced in the existence of God or God's.



Atheism must involve the certainty of the non-existence of any God’s.



Unless it can be proved that certainty can actually be obtained by finite human reasoning it follows naturally that atheism, (certainty of the non existence of God), is entirely a matter of ‘faith’ and a misguided ‘faith’ at that because ‘faith’ which rejects even the possibility of re-evaluation in the light of as yet unknown or unexamined evidence, (i.e. NDE’s or Psychic experiences etc.) is blind faith of the extreme kind that atheists most detest in others who have ‘beliefs’ dressed up as ‘certainties'.



I agree that such true atheists must be very rare indeed. Most who claim to be atheists seem to just have a particular dislike of ‘religious dogma’ for whatever personal reason rather than a reasoned certainty of the non-existence of God.



I might suggest therefore that Atheists could potentially be open to NDE’s just like anyone else. One might just as well surmise that it is possible to know one is dreaming rather than actually experiencing waking ‘reality’. Perhaps it is possible but I have never yet dreamed that I am ‘dreaming’. I don’t know if anyone else here has?



Dreams are always (it seems) based on or derived from, some version of ‘reality’ which is causing us concern or distress. Could the NDE's of Atheists, (or those who claim to be), (if they happen), be based upon their concerns and subconscious fears or their inner hopes and aspirations? Possibly!



Could this explain the 50% ‘horror’ NDE’s that Walt has informed us of?



Regards Chris.

Keep in mind that "religious" or "spiritual" experiences wherein one "experiences a God presence" can be brought about with purely material (chemical/physical) stimulation of areas of the brain.



As the brain dies, similar "experiences" are brought about that the individual will accept as the presence of non-material entities, such as souls or gods...or will accept as the physical and normal function of a dying brain.



Should there be no such NDE, and there are many who experience nothing, how does that speak to an individual's faith or to an acceptance that what others experience is reality and proof of non-material existence? If some forget their NDEs and some "imagine to memory" their NDEs, where is any proof that NDEs are reality?



Atheists, as well as, theists experience NDEs and nothing. Should a theist who experiences nothing begin to deny the existence of the soul and his deity? If not, then why would an atheist who experiences a typical NDE begin to accept the existence of the soul and a deity?



NDEs nearly always bring about a profound change in the individual's concept of self and of his role in the scheme of all things, but it doesn't necessarily mean a change in his deity belief or disbelief.



If a drug or other stimulus can produce a feeling of the presence of God, what does that say about our brain's ability to discern what is real? Are most brains more susceptible to those "feelings?" Is deity belief a learned behavior? Do experiences and behavior patterns stimulate deity belief and faith?



Is the theist's "reasoned certainty" more balanced than the atheist's "reasoned certainty?" Do you have proof that one is more balanced than the other? No you do not and neither do I. I only know what I know...and you only know what you know.



The way we interpret what we know makes all the difference.

Jeanne :



Is the theist's "reasoned certainty" more balanced than the atheist's "reasoned certainty?"



Apart from death and taxes what 'certainty' can be reasoned?



Regards Chris

Sarah, atheism is ONLY the disbelief in any gods. That's it. No god belief.



NDEs offer no proof of any but material existence. The experience itself is part of a dying brain, which may be remembered or may not. As a materialist, I have been "conditioned" I suppose to expect to experience a similar occurrence as my brain dies, but if I do not why would it matter. Just as I do not remember all my dreams, should I not remember traveling toward a white light and warm, loving feelings and "seeing" my ancestors, etc. would it make a difference in my feeling of not dying, of being given another shot at being alive? Would I not be grateful for that second bit of living before actual death?



It would be a rare person to find who has never been exposed to ANY deity belief, religion, hope-filled movie or book, spiritual beliefs, afterlife beliefs or ghost stories. That would be a natural atheist! Then to nearly kill this poor subject and find out what was experienced would be a further stretch.



We are all the sum total of our experiences and cannot avoid being influenced by ideas that we reject vehemently. Our dreams are proof of that.



NDEs are no "measuring stick for atheism" any more than they are for theism.

Hello Chris.



It is you who wrote:



<<I agree that such true atheists must be very rare indeed. Most who claim to be atheists seem to just have a particular dislike of ‘religious dogma’ for whatever personal reason rather than a reasoned certainty of the non-existence of God. >>



Perhaps most who claim to be theists have a particular attachment to religious dogma rather than a reasoned certainty of the existence of God.



As for taxes and death; I will stake the certainty of death over the certainty of taxes. Then again...who knows what the future may bring. Perhaps a different definition of death that does not ever mean loss of the essence of an individual's being. EEEK... I will take taxes please!

Jeanne :



Perhaps most who claim to be theists have a particular attachment to religious dogma rather than a reasoned certainty of the existence of God.



I must concede that this also is probably true of many 'theists' who desire 'certainty' over and above 'faith'. I dislike 'religious' peddlers of 'certainty' as much as any atheist might.



Regards Chris.

Hey Chris and Jeanne,

Thanks for clarifying your positions. It really does seem to come down to beliefs, doesn't it?



Embedded in my question about NDEs is the question of who a person is; the essence of who you actually are. Jeanne you are correct that experiences can be elicited by a direct manipulation of the brain. This has been done many times during brain surgery while the patient was conscious. (How one could remain conscious during brain surgery, or why one would want to, ya gotta wonder!) So one could conclude that personality and experience are nothing more than the result of brain function.



However, I'm of the opinion that the brain is nothing more than a tool or a vehicle. Or a conduit between the physical and spiritual dimensions. A physical experience is created by neuro-chemical changes in the brain. The question is what or who is causing those changes? The brain can be manipulated through direct electrical stimulation or through drugs. I believe it can also be manipulated by the real you. So at death when the brain loses its ability to function the spirit life breaks the connection and turns its focus away from the physical realm. I think this is why NDE experiencers report a heightened level of awareness. They're no longer held prisoner by their body's physical limitations.



I know there are questions implied in here but I'll leave them for further discussion.



Cheers,

Rob

Sarah:

You questioned me as to whether or not the experience of NDE defined whether or not they were "true" atheists.



Using THAT logic, then, Jeanne can never KNOW if she is TRULY an atheist...despite claiming such for most of her life, right?



Likewise...a 'Christian' who has an 'experience' that varies from your, or Jim's, or Allen's interpretation of the few passages of Scripture that even fleetingly touches on the nature of the afterlife....is NOT TRULY a Christian???? I think that is the unfortunate conclusion one would have to hold, if one wishes to be logically consistent, right?



Isn't it more logical to conclude, ESPECIALLY in these cases, where one's 'experience' so utterly differs from their previous belief system, that such an experience just 'might' reflect the 'reality' as opposed to previous 'beliefs'? We ALL 'see' through that mirror (glass) darkly, especially when we attempt to delve into areas of knowledge about which we are provided so few specifics.



Blessings,

Hey Walt.



You write:



<<Isn't it more logical to conclude, ESPECIALLY in these cases, where one's 'experience' so utterly differs from their previous belief system, that such an experience just 'might' reflect the 'reality' as opposed to previous 'beliefs'? >>



No, it is not. We cannot help but be influence by popular culture and by the beliefs of others, or by traditional beliefs of humanity. I well could experience the whole shebang...Jesus, God, heaven, etc.... simply because I know about it. I could even experience Odin or Isis or Zeus...simply because I know about it. I could even experience some sort of alien afterlife (think Avatar) simply because I know about it.



Were each NDE the same for all individuals maybe there would be something worth investigating, but Muslims do not see Jesus and Hindus do not see Odin, nor do Christians see L. Ron Hubbard...or whatever...



What is the true reality of our brain? How can pure reality be separated from what it has experienced?



This is too deep for a Thursday.



So...I know I am, but what are you?



Or...I think, therefore, I think I am.



-Jeanne

Rob, one does not have to endure brain surgery to have ones brain manipulated, and I don't mean on a shrink's couch.



I think the most recent article I read discussed an experiment done using a single pill, but there has been a device that creates a field about ones head that creates the same sort of experience. I would have to search for it..or you could.



My brain has been manipulated so many times that my memories stick in the oatmeal. It is truly amazing what I have forgotten, yet equally amazing what stuff is in there that pops out when I need it. As in a recent board game; "Parabella...why do I know what a parabella is?!" Sheesh....!



-Jeanne