If Jesus were to return for you today, would you be ready? Why or why not?"

I understand losing Mother. Mine went on to Jesus recently too. It was almost unbelievable. It wasn't something I gave thought to all my years until it began to happen. I hope she left you priceless lessons available no other way."

I need to be reminded daily Jesus is in fact returning for me, date unknown. Why? It keeps me already face to face with the Lord. I need that. I am not nearly as ready for THAT meeting as I want to be, so each day I set out to listen and obey better than yesterday. I desire more each day to see his face in the mirror instead of mine, but that still eludes me."

Quote:"Hmmm, I suppose you refer to two meetings face to face, in death, or maybe later when Jesus returns."

Quote:"It appears to me that, given there are more people alive on earth today than there are dead people from all ages, there couldn't be a more effective period for Jesus to finish all this. In other words, I think most of us will not see death before he arrives."

Quote:"I also suspect anticipation of that return is cumulative, each generation having their list of events pointing to their witness of the event. If past generations held strong conviction for that, then mine ought to be more fervently watching."

Quote:"I stopped worrying over the Makebelievers around me too, switching to living Christ in front of them as well as struggling believers. Yes, Jesus is coming, to take his disciples with him. The real ones will accompany him. I suspect the greatest number of Staybehinders will also be found to be chronic Hesitators. They will pause just a second too long, looking back like Lot's wife....losing sight of Jesus and company."

Not nearly ready? Aren't you 'as ready' as the thief on the cross? HE was as 'ready' as he was ever GOING to be....right? Wasn't he 'ready' enough?

Philip. 3:12-13 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"

Sojourner asked


Well...first off...my 'hope'.....yes...my 'confidence' is NOT in the 'rapture'.....it is in eternity spent in the Presence of God...just to clarify.
Secondly....it does seem as if it's your premise that although this man....having done NOTHING on earth to warrant or justify the forgiveness he received (any more than ANY of us have done)....died a 'child of God'....destined for heaven...yet.....it seems as if you ALSO believe....that had he LIVED.....his eternal destiny would have been far less certain. Can you elucidate as to just why you propose this....yet still hold that 'salvation' is NOT of 'works'. It does sound to me as if perhaps you haven't fully thought out your theology in this area. Whether he died...as indeed he did....before the Sabbath.....or whether he was 'sprung' from the cross...and lived another 30 years.....he would have been equally justified by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.....either way....IMHO.


Let's call it what it is....Jesus TOLD HIM....unequivocally....that he would reside in 'Paradise' (the abode of the RIGHTEOUS DEAD) that very day....with Jesus Himself. Thus....Jesus is declaring him RIGHTEOUS....at that moment....on nothing more or less than his heartfelt plea to Jesus....in the midst of their suffering. The fact that they were still under the OT regime of things....mandated their stopover in 'paradise' until the 'completion' of Christ's redemptive work....His resurrection....but his ultimate destination is no more in question than that of any other OT saint who'd died and ALSO resided in 'paradise'.


Jesus 'preached to'.....the residents of Paradise....I believe...NOT in the fashion of the old 'hellfire and brimstone' preachers....who preached to saint and sinner alike....requiring a 'decision' on the part of the 'sinner' to ensure their 'ticket' on the 'Glory Express'....but....more in the line of explaining to them more fully...the reality of things.....as opposed to the types and shadows which were all they'd known during their lifetimes. I don't believe they had any 'decision' to make...that would affect their eternal destiny....if THAT was in doubt...they'd have been in the OTHER section of Hades...but they were in PARADISE...the abode of the RIGHTEOUS DEAD, thus, in God's eyes....they WERE righteous....not by virtue of their sacrifices under Mosaic Law....but because of their hearts....their belief in God....their faith in Him. In other words....anticipating...as much as they could, knowing only types, shadows, symbols...trusting in the very same 'finished' work of Jesus BEFOREHAND...that we do RETROACTIVELY. I believe that what Jesus did was to explain and show them more fully....the concrete REALITY....behind the shadows they'd known all their lives.

Now....having said all that....based on a fairly recent 'interpretation' of that passage....an older understanding of it within Christianity is simply that we're told that these 'spirits in prison' at the time of the writing of this passage.....had already been 'preached to' during their earthly lifetimes...by the 'pneuma' (Holy Spirit)....and God, in His forbearance....had done so throughout the 120 years of the building of the Ark....and that these 'spirits in prison' were 'disobedient'...they refused to accept or believe the message...and thus perished...and ever since, have awaited their final outcome in 'prison'....the side of Hades reserved for the unrighteous. I have nowhere found any characterization of the 'righteous' as being 'in prison' after death....so perhaps this 'understanding' of the passage....albeit not as 'modern' as some of what I've read during MY lifetime....might convey more accurately the intended meaning.


Since the bolded word carries a ton of baggage with it....perhaps it's inappropriate to use it here, since the actual greek word is 'hades'....which does not carry the meaning we've infused with the word 'hell'.


All analogies break down at some point....and this one earlier than many. IF we indeed were in a 'race'.....it's obvious that ONLY ONE PERSON WINS ANY RACE...thus....only ONE person would achieve 'salvation'.....'heaven'....'eternal bliss'...rapture....or whatever other connotation you wish to attach to this. Yet...we KNOW that this is false....since, as Jesus said...there are 'many mansions' in His Father's house...etc, etc.

"Escape from judgement of this world through the rapture"? Well...the purported 'judgement' is the 'WRATH OF GOD'....and believers are NOT subject to the 'wrath of God'....but, rather, are treated as 'sons and daughters'. Our 'correction' (chastisement) has a remedial quality...much as our (in our better moments) chastisement of our own earthly children is (supposed to be) remedial and corrective....rather than angry punishment. The reason or proof that we're not subject to 'judgement in terms of the 'wrath of God'.....is that we ARE CHASTISED by our Father....which is proof of our sonship....rather than illegitimacy.

IF it is 'presumptuous' to believe that our eternal destiny was decided by the Father....before the foundation of the world....and is secure....then I guess Paul and the other Apostles were presumptuous....because we're constantly told that we ARE secure...and BECAUSE of that fact....we are to WALK as 'children of the light'. One follows the other....we DON'T live our lives attempting to 'earn' what Christ provided free of charge...as a gift...but....we live our lives in gratitude and thankfulness....BECAUSE of what He's ALREADY DONE for and in us.

Thus....and given Paul's oft-used analogies pertaining to common Roman customs....and specifically the gladiatorial games, etc....what is being spoken of here is 'rewards'.....for service/performance....and NOT 'salvation' at all.


You quote verses 12 and 13 as if (seemingly) it referred to him somehow performing in such a way as to 'attain' salvation/justification....which simply cannot be the case...or he'd be contradicting a myriad of passages in which he stipulates that it's an already attained possession....through NO works of his/our own...but solely through the Grace of God...acquired through faith...which ITSELF is a gift of God.

What IS Paul referring to here? I believe if we go back several more verses...it becomes clearer.

Here, in verse 9...Paul reiterates that this is NOT his OWN 'righteousness' (coming by works or whatever) but the righeousness that is solely through the 'faith of Christ...of God by faith'. This excludes any idea of him struggling to produce works that might assure his justification....or him being unsure as to his ultimate destiny.

Attained what? Apprehended what? That's the question!
I believe that verse 10 tells us.
1.That he may KNOW Him.
2. That he may KNOW the 'power of His resurrection'.
3.That he may KNOW the 'fellowship of His sufferings'.
4. That he may be 'MADE CONFORMABLE unto His death'.

Paul is not speaking here of 'attaining a righteous standing' before God....or...justification...that was decided once for all by Christ...when He apprehended Paul/Saul on the road to Damascus, or, more accurately....before the 'foundation of the earth'. He is speaking here of the lifelong process of 'SANCTIFICATION'....and you're right....he is not arrogant enough to claim that he's already ACHIEVED total sanctification....it's a process...and even this, arguably the greatest Apostle (whom God used to pen some 40% of the NT) struggled and 'walked out' his salvation....as God did HIS work in him.


As I've mentioned....all analogies break down...IF this refers to 'salvation' or 'justification'....then ONLY ONE PERSON IN HISTORY 'wins' such. I don't believe it DOES refer to that....but to how we're to approach our 'life in Him'....as we proceed on this lifelong process of 'sanctification'....being 'conformed to His image'....as He chips away at the rough edges....burns out the impurities, etc...to make us reflect more perfectly the 'glory of God'.


I neither....but NOT because I think that it (my efforts) have ANYTHING to do with my eternal destiny...or that this 'destiny' isn't utterly sure....but BECAUSE of what He's so freely GIVEN me....I WANT to please Him....I WANT to be 'conformed to His image'...and, like Paul....I certainly do NOT claim to have reached any point even approaching 'total sanctification'.....unlike some of the 'holiness groups'. However.....looking back....I can see progress....I can say...."I'm NOT what I'm supposed to be....what I WILL be.....but thank God....I'm NOT what I USED to be!"
I don't dwell on looking 'back'....cause that can lead to pride....and I don't dwell on 'looking ahead'...because the dichotomy between what I WANT to be....what I'm SUPPOSED to be...and the reality of where I am in my struggle.....might lead to despair.....so....I'll just continue to trudge....step by step.....receiving just enough 'light' for the present step.....stumbling often....falling occasionally....but always getting back up and taking that 'next step'. This must...and will continue....whether I live to be a hundred....or whether my 'clock' runs out 5 minutes from now....and I'm assured of one thing....WHEN I stand before God....a part of that one 'church' 'without spot or wrinkle'....such spotlessness and 'wrinkle-free status....will be NOT due to bleach and 'static-cling'....OR to MY EFFORTS....but solely to the spotlessness and purity of Jesus Himself...who has clothed me with HIS 'righteousness'....thank goodness.


Again....that focus on the 'rapture'. IF I suddenly have a major heart attack...and slump down dead over my keyboard....I would be equally 'ashamed'....lack of 'rapture' notwithstanding. I suspect that....in that moment....standing before Him....knowing what we'll KNOW....we'll ALL be 'ashamed'....even the most 'holy' or 'perfect' of us.....as we realize just how short we ALL fall....and how utterly dependent each one of us is on the UNMERITED GRACE of GOD....which is the ONLY THING that 'justifies' us. Amen?

Blessings,

Well...first off...my 'hope'.....yes...my 'confidence' is NOT in the 'rapture'.....it is in eternity spent in the Presence of God...just to clarify.

Col. 1:5 "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; ..."

Col. 1:25-29 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: [27] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: [28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: [29] Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."

1 Thes. 2:19 " For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

Secondly....it does seem as if it's your premise that although this man....having done NOTHING on earth to warrant or justify the forgiveness he received (any more than ANY of us have done)....died a 'child of God'....destined for heaven...yet.....it seems as if you ALSO believe....that had he LIVED.....his eternal destiny would have been far less certain. Can you elucidate as to just why you propose this....yet still hold that 'salvation' is NOT of 'works'. It does sound to me as if perhaps you haven't fully thought out your theology in this area. Whether he died...as indeed he did....before the Sabbath.....or whether he was 'sprung' from the cross...and lived another 30 years.....he would have been equally justified by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.....either way....IMHO.

Luke 23:39-43 "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. [40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? [41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. [42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. [43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Let's call it what it is....Jesus TOLD HIM....unequivocally....that he would reside in 'Paradise' (the abode of the RIGHTEOUS DEAD) that very day....with Jesus Himself. Thus....Jesus is declaring him RIGHTEOUS....at that moment....on nothing more or less than his heartfelt plea to Jesus....in the midst of their suffering. The fact that they were still under the OT regime of things....mandated their stopover in 'paradise' until the 'completion' of Christ's redemptive work....His resurrection....but his ultimate destination is no more in question than that of any other OT saint who'd died and ALSO resided in 'paradise'.

I have nowhere found any characterization of the 'righteous' as being 'in prison' after death....so perhaps this 'understanding' of the passage....albeit not as 'modern' as some of what I've read during MY lifetime....might convey more accurately the intended meaning.

Romans 10:8-17 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

...and God, in His forbearance....had done so throughout the 120 years of the building of the Ark....and that these 'spirits in prison' were 'disobedient'...they refused to accept or believe the message...and thus perished...and ever since, have awaited their final outcome in 'prison'....the side of Hades reserved for the unrighteous.

Hebrews 2:14-16 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [15] And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Hebrews 11:39-40 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Since the bolded word carries a ton of baggage with it....perhaps it's inappropriate to use it here, since the actual greek word is 'hades'....which does not carry the meaning we've infused with the word 'hell'.

All analogies break down at some point....and this one earlier than many. IF we indeed were in a 'race'.....it's obvious that ONLY ONE PERSON WINS ANY RACE...thus....only ONE person would achieve 'salvation'.....'heaven'....'eternal bliss'...rapture....or whatever other connotation you wish to attach to this. Yet...we KNOW that this is false....since, as Jesus said...there are 'many mansions' in His Father's house...etc, etc.

1 Cor. 9:24 "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain." and Hebrews 12:1
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

"Escape from judgement of this world through the rapture"? Well...the purported 'judgement' is the 'WRATH OF GOD'....and believers are NOT subject to the 'wrath of God'....but, rather, are treated as 'sons and daughters'. Our 'correction' (chastisement) has a remedial quality...much as our (in our better moments) chastisement of our own earthly children is (supposed to be) remedial and corrective....rather than angry punishment. The reason or proof that we're not subject to 'judgement in terms of the 'wrath of God'.....is that we ARE CHASTISED by our Father....which is proof of our sonship....rather than illegitimacy.

Ephes. 5:14-17 "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. [15] See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, [16] Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. [17] Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is."

IF it is 'presumptuous' to believe that our eternal destiny was decided by the Father....before the foundation of the world....and is secure....then I guess Paul and the other Apostles were presumptuous....because we're constantly told that we ARE secure...and BECAUSE of that fact....we are to WALK as 'children of the light'. One follows the other....we DON'T live our lives attempting to 'earn' what Christ provided free of charge...as a gift...but....we live our lives in gratitude and thankfulness....BECAUSE of what He's ALREADY DONE for and in us.

Thus....and given Paul's oft-used analogies pertaining to common Roman customs....and specifically the gladiatorial games, etc....what is being spoken of here is 'rewards'.....for service/performance....and NOT 'salvation' at all.

2 Peter 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

Paul is not speaking here of 'attaining a righteous standing' before God....or...justification...that was decided once for all by Christ

Philip. 3:11-14 "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. [12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Quote:"The Word agrees that is the last sentence of my comprehension of what our hope involves. It carries over to eternity future, but once realized in Heaven it is no longer hope."

Quote:"But there is more to my hope, involving the here and now, which I strive to attain to, like you well proclaim.

Well....that was Paul...expressing God's calling and purpose for HIS life. It is highly unlikely that HIS calling....is YOUR calling....or MINE. (He was, after all, graced with direct revelations of Jesus Christ.....and was used to pen something like 40% of the NT)
God 'calls' each one of us....to bloom and bear fruit where WE are planted....and, yes....sometimes He even TRANSPLANTS us. If I were a 'garbage man'.....I'm called to be the BEST Garbageman there is...to exemplify and reflect the personhood and Glory of Jesus/God to those whom I meet...whom I work with....and, yes...even extend the 'grace' of God to the down and outers....who rummage through the bins I pick up.

I spent 25 years...working on arguably the most....or one of the most negative environments in our societies.....maximum security prisons. Although I was 'The Man'....enforcing rules and behaviour they didn't want to acknowledge....I also tried to let God shine through me....because....ESPECIALLY in THAT environment....I might well be the ONLY 'Jesus' they ever encounter. I may never know...this side of glory....what impact I had on any of those thousands of inmates that I encountered during those years....I never received a 'tip' when they were released...in 25 years...I perhaps had 'positive feedback'/thanks from perhaps a half dozen or so inmates....but....God knows....and THAT'S enough for me.

Sojourner wrote:



Once again...I am mystified as to just what you try to prove here. I think it extremely presumptuous of us to attempt to impute to Jesus....just what HE might 'require' in terms of repentance....and to 'judge' what would and what would not be 'enough' for Him to forgive and justify a sinner. I sincerely hope that HE judges ME....less severely!

We are told that 'man' looks on outward appearance...but God looks on the heart....I don't think we can rightly make an exception in this instance. After all...in Luke 18...the Pharisee was the 'righteous' one....who extolled all the sins he DIDN'T participate in....who prided himself on his knowledge of the ''Law'....and his adherence to the tithes and fasts....yet....still...was NOT justified.

By contrast...the Publican....standing far off (humbly aware of his OWN sinfulness)....merely beat on his chest and cried out..."God, be merciful to me a sinner"....and....HE WENT HOME JUSTIFIED.

I respectfully submit that we...me...you....have absolutely no warrant to presume to judge this man....hanging on a Roman Cross....in excruciating pain and agony....as he gasped out...."Lord, (Kurios...God..Master) remember me when you come into your Kingdom"....and, in response....Jesus, looking on his heart....answers...Truly I say unto you....TODAY you will be WITH ME in Paradise. (the abode of the RIGHTEOUS DEAD) Otherwise...he'd have been in the abyss....the section reserved for the UNRIGHTEOUS...like "Shades" was in the parable about Lazarus the beggar.

So...as I said..I am puzzled by your claim that 'one was wicked....the other 'righteous to some degree'....just how many 'degrees of righteousness' are there, anyway....one is either RIGHTEOUS....or....UNRIGHTEOUS. In terms of standing before God....I submit that they BOTH were UNRIGHTEOUS...as you and I as well....which is why THEY...and WE....even NEED a Saviour...right? My standing before God is (thank God) NOT based on MY 'righteousness'....or...even worse...'some degree of such'....but solely on CHRIST'S 'righteousness.....amen? So...we have two individuals...one deriding Christ...the other acknowledging His Lordship...and asking for mercy...which implies a penitent and repentant attitude. I'd say that many we regard as 'saved' in our time....display far less.

Oh boy....wasn't it YOU who said?....

So....while this 'might' be the basis for a fictional work....akin to the 'Left Behind' series....you take serious liberties and go FAR beyond the information about the nature of the state of disembodied spirits....or the world to come that is provided in Scripture. Please don't take this as an attack.....I'm just utterly bemused by this flight of imagination....that's all.

Let me just make a couple of observations and then I'll leave it alone...it is...after all, just another 'rabbit trail'....not germaine to our discussion...since it exists only on an imaginary plane.

Adam, Abraham, Moses....were merely 'not found wicked'? Really? Seems to me...that Abraham was declared righteous in God's eyes....and THAT without doing a blessed THING...except 'BELIEVING'...right? His 'act of obedience' vis-a-vis Isaac....ocurred some YEARS later.
Moses was chosen by God....for a purpose..and he fulfilled that purpose....less that moment of frustration and anger...when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it.{and, his punishment for that was 'temporal'...not eternal. The fact that he was seen conversing with Jesus (in flesh or vision) on the Mount says volumes about his 'holiness' doesn't it?)
Adam? Didn't God bless him and Eve...with a godly son...Seth? I submit that all those in a right heart relationship with God....throughout the OT....are just as covered by the 'blood of Jesus' as we presume to be....REGARDLESS of their sometimes extravagant sins....David was a 'man after God's own heart'....but he sure wasn't 'sinless'....etc.

Virtually every culture and religion has their own equivalent of 'paradise'....and it is...when used in an eschatological sense.....the abode of the disembodied spirits of the RIGHTEOUS dead.

The 'Garden of Eden' in the center of the earth? Somehow...4000 Deg F doesn't seem like 'paradise' to me!

You postulate the inhabitants of 'Paradise' as being able to 'choose' to move down to the place of punishment....yet....in Jesus' parable....we hear Abraham telling Shades that NO ONE CAN GO FROM PARADISE TO WHERE HE WAS....quite a contradiction.

I maintain that those declared 'righteous' in the OT....are righteous today. The fact that they didn't know events to come thousands of years in the future...notwithstanding....they are STILL covered by the blood of Christ....declared 'righteous' in Him....by virtue of their HEARTS....and the spiritual circumcision of such....which, Paul tells us....is what made a TRUE Israelite. Just as WE...are covered by that same blood...even though it was spilled nearly 2000 years ago....they are no less 'justified' by God...by virtue of having been born 2000 years BEFORE Christ.

A bit of a 'strawman argument' here....since neither I (nor anyone else I've ever heard) has ever claimed that Paradise WAS Heaven. As for the 'sign of Jonah, nowhere can I find that Jesus 'suffered' after death, and, of course....Jonah did NOT die...and he was NOT in the 'underworld'....so that 'sign' is limited to his 3 days and nights IN the whale....comparing it to Jesus' 3 days and nights in the GRAVE...and, I submit....THAT is the only relevance to the comparison. Jonah was a 'sign' to the Ninevites...Jesus preached for 3 years + to the Jews....as a 'sign to them. So...can you elucidate....just where you get Jesus 'suffering' after death? Perhaps I've missed something...it happens!
I'm afraid we part company here....I don't grant that satan has ANY independent right....in heaven OR on earth...and certainly not through any 'technicality'....or lapse of God.
And....long after that date...Paul wrote that they STILL HAD NOT OBTAINED....he was speaking of their and our 'glorification'....the aquisition of our 'spirit bodies'....the completion of the process of 'redemption'....and Paul said that they will NOT arrive....except with us...we ALL receive at the same time...at the resurrection.

Once again....you confuse me. Where does it ever speak of 'spirit beings' passing through by hundreds in Jerusalem. My Bible merely tells me that 'MANY' of the saints ROSE BODILY from the grave....and were seen by many. NOT all...just MANY. AND...this happened....NOT at His resurrection....but upon HIS DEATH....as He was ostensibly traveling to the centre of the earth...according to your scheme of things. Sorry....the text doesn't support that thesis at all, IMHO.

That's the theory....we'll all find out some day. We're also told about what's 'planted' in the earth is one thing....and what's harvested or reaped.....is something quite different....one a seed....the other a full-grown plant....visibly different...so...I'm perfectly willing to wait and see.

I think you're morphing together what James said about faith (false or dead faith, which is NO faith) and works....and what Jesus said in a word picture in John 15.

I have a Rose bush outside my front door....I didn't get a single rose off of it last year...or the year before. IF I'd taken your view...I'd have ripped it up by the roots....however....THIS year....I got some beautiful roses from it. It's all in the timing....and that's NOT 'your' timing....or...even 'mine'. I've had times in my life...where...by my admittedly biased viewpoint....I 'bore fruit'....and I've had some 'fruitless' years as well. I thank God that it is HE who began and will finish the 'good work' in me....and NOT due to MY efforts,works, and struggles.

Ummnh....I didn't SAY that Jesus would 'take him there'...it's a moot point...the reality is that he would BE THERE...that VERY DAY....which, in and of itself, presupposes Jesus imputing righteousness to him....since it was the abode of the RIGHTEOUS DEAD!
He didn't NEED to....the destination tells us all we need to know about that. Paradise was where Abraham hung out...remember...Lazarus resting in 'Abraham's bosom'?

"Any other Jew" did NOT have a 'right' to enter Paradise....otherwise, Shades (rich man) would have been speaking to Abraham face to face....rather than being in torment. Those God deemed to be 'righteous'....right of heart towards Him' (NOT sinless)....were those who went there....the evil went to the 'other' place.

Once again...we part company. satan had no claim....and doesn't...that God didn't give him in the first place. Once more...I've never seen enough evidence that ostensibly shows that spirits of the righteous dead were 'captive'...and certainly not 'captive by satan'. Samuel's spirit rose at the summons from the witch of Endor....Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus on the mount...etc. Jesus could NOT have 'skipped' going there...since His being there was in fulfillment of prophecy...wasn't it?

Not meaning to quibble...but I'd say that NO ONE has any 'choice' AFTER death....they had one of two DESTINATIONS....not choices. Right?

Not sure what your point is...unless...like the JW's...you're attempting to accuse Jesus of redundancy...."Truly I say to you TODAY....."....what OTHER DAY could He have been saying it on....since they were hanging side by side....hours away from death???? IF paradise is the abode of the 'righteous dead'....and...historically, it is....and IF Jesus was there THAT VERY DAY....there's no reason not to take...as most scholars do today....it to mean that the thief would ALSO be there...that very day!
'lower parts'? Abode of the dead...yes...abode of the righteous dead....certainly...'lower parts' as in the Abyss (tartarus).....I highly doubt it...that was reserved for the unrighteous....and Jesus certainly NEVER was that.

Why make an issue of the souls there with 'sin'....or 'imperfections'....or lack of knowledge of what was coming? VERY many...over the past 2000 years...fit that bill perfectly.....and many even today....who, having gotten one foot inside 'Canaan'....are happy to camp out on the border, rather than enter into the land of 'milk and honey'. Since WE.....WITH the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT....and all our KNOWLEDGE....are still 'sinful beings'.....yet...God deigns to 'live' IN us....what's the surprise that He can justify sinners in the OT era...who had a 'heart for God'?

Well...as long as we're engaging in extrabiblical speculation....I see no reason to believe that these OT saints CAN'T see events on earth....perhaps had even been following eagerly Jesus' ministry for 3 1/2 years already...and ALREADY KNEW and accepted His Lordship!

Precisely....just as faith....once realized.....is no longer faith....it is 'knowing'. Too many believers are unclear on that distinction...mistaking what they 'believe' through the eyes of 'faith'...as somehow constituting a concrete 'KNOWING'....as in empirical fact.

Matthew 12:38-40 "Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Thes. 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Cor. 13:13 And now abideth faith (pistis), hope (elpis), charity (agape), these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ephes. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hebrews 11:5-6 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Hebrews 6:18-19 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: [19] Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;