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Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer?

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Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer?
Believing in evolution takes a lot of faith. To believe that our perfectly designed universe came from nothing takes a magnitude of faith I can't understand. Every single factor from the distance of the earth to the sun, the earth rotating and titled on its axis to the perfect makeup of our atmosphere(oxygen, etc.) are examples of that design. If even one of those factors, and there are multitudes of others, were off in just a small degree, then there would be no life on earth. And I haven't even touched on the fact that life does not come out of nothing. Our DNA and every living being's DNA is so intricate that it is mathematically impossible for that DNA to come from nothing. As I stated at the beginning, I believe that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and Creator.
Craig Dressler
http://christianbook2.webs.com
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Re: [craigdressler] Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer? In reply to
Hi Craig.

I would really enjoy a conversation with you about whether it is harder to be an atheist than to be a theist, but since you just post and post and post....well, at least you aren't trying to sell cheating services for students.

You write:

<<Believing in evolution takes a lot of faith.>>

Many theists, even Christians, accept the Theory of Evolution. There are very good reasons for all fairly intelligent people to have faith in the scientific method that allowed the hypothesis of evolution to become a Scientific Theory.

You continue:

<<To believe that our perfectly designed universe came from nothing takes a magnitude of faith >>

I think it is not science, which posits that something came from nothing. I think science contends that a certain amount of matter/energy has always existed and always will exist in one form or another and possibly in some other universe, of which ours is a bubble or a brane of many. Theists contend that their creator deity has always existed.

You then write:

<<Every single factor from the distance of the earth to the sun, the earth rotating and titled on its axis to the perfect makeup of our atmosphere(oxygen, etc.) are examples of that design. If even one of those factors, and there are multitudes of others, were off in just a small degree, then there would be no life on earth. >>

That's right. Our planet is in the "Goldilocks zone" as it was just right for development of future life. Well...after millions of years it became just right, as it had to go though many processes just to create any atmosphere, let alone one that was suitable to single-celled organisms and the environment required to sustain them. But..."those factors" as you call them have changed dramatically since the beginning and there are atmospheres and environments that might not sustain human life, but do sustain other life forms. And...we will probably find life on other planets that have environments unsuitable to human life from Terra.

As well, this planet is and has always been hostile to most of the lifeforms that have existed here...so "just right" is really only "okay" and no picnic for humans.

You add:

<<And I haven't even touched on the fact that life does not come out of nothing. >>

Life...first life of the single-celled variety and very basic most likely did come from whatever was available at the time, but just how that happened can only be guessed at currently, although some very good guesses have been made, but evolution does not speak to abiogenesis. And...it may well be that the nudge of a superior life-form was needed. Was it the nudge of a deity? That is okay to believe in. Maybe it was the nudge of another life-form, both superior and alien to our planet. In either case there remains the question of where that deity or life-form came from and how it existed. You know...who made God?

You add:

<<Our DNA and every living being's DNA is so intricate that it is mathematically impossible for that DNA to come from nothing.>>

Mathematically impossible? Intricate, yes. Far from perfect. And...certainly becoming more and more understood now that it is mapped. It certainly did not come from nothing, as such seemingly impossible things as eyes can be followed back through evolution to a time when the first light sensitive cell became an important enough genetic mistake to be repeated through generations.

You end with:

<<As I stated at the beginning, I believe that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and Creator. >>

No, you wrote that "believing in evolution takes a lot of faith" and that is not the same thing at all.

The title for this topic is "Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer?" and that a is very different subject.

I will answer that question. It is easy to believe what you accept to be true if you are true to yourself. It is not necessary for anyone to know what you believe but yourself.

Now...is it easy to be an atheist in an overtly theist situation, especially when theists insist that you don't exist, can't exist, don't really think there is no deity and tell you that you are evil and can do no good and have no moral compass and must be so depressed that it is a wonder that you can get up in the morning and that you are going to burn hell for all eternity when you die? No that is hard, especially for children.

Is it easy to be a theist in an overtly atheist situation, especially when ....wait a minute...atheists generally do not behave in such manners unless provoked. Most would rather let people believe what they want as long as it neither breaks a bone nor picks a pocket. Apologies to Thomas Jefferson.

How about you man-up and reply and we can have a conversation about being a theist and an atheist in the USA?

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [craigdressler] Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer? In reply to
Hi, Craig,
As you know, I am not an atheist... but I CAN understand how impossible it is to believe that any one being could have created all this. It is MORE than impossible. So I assume atheists have to come up with other reasons of how this universe was created. Unfortunately, their reasoning makes even less sense than that of a Christian. I expect God planned it that way.
Blessings ~ Sarah
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Re: [praizeop2] Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer? In reply to
Dear Sarah.

Love your heart! Smile

Matter/Energy has always existed in one form or another. Something happened, the very beginning of which we don't know yet...but we can know what happened after that initial happening. Existence has altered with millions and millions of years to become as we know it today.

Versus

God...the Christian God, a Creator Deity, has always existed exactly as He does today. God resided outside of all existence, and acted upon nothing to create it and now resides within all existence and still acts upon it. God created everything at some past time exactly as it exists today.

It only makes more sense to you because of the default reasoning of theists that God did it. If you start from the premise that there are no creator deities, the other makes sense.

It is still miraculous and totally bewildering to contemplate.

The real problem is what human beings did from there with what they thought to be truth.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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Re: [jeanne53] Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer? In reply to
jeanne: Hi

Matter/Energy has always existed in one form or another. Something happened, the very beginning of which we don't know yet...but we can know what happened after that initial happening. Existence has altered with millions and millions of years to become as we know it today.

but we can know what happened after that initial happening.

Actually we can theorise but not postulate on what actually happened immediately after, (say for the following 1,000,000,000 years or so). After that things become more predictable and the Laws of Physics and Natural Selection have left some evidence which, if interpreted correctly, leads in a certain direction to an understanding of how events probably unfolded.

Versus

God...the Christian God, a Creator Deity, has always existed exactly as He does today. God resided outside of all existence, and acted upon nothing to create it and now resides within all existence and still acts upon it. God created everything at some past time exactly as it exists today.

Your difficulty, I appreciate, is in describing what the broad range of Christian scientific opinion is on the mechanics of the physical creation.

It is not entirely accepted in Christian thought that everything was created ex nihilo. Scripture is not pedantic on the proposition. The only statement directly to that effect comes from The Apocrypha not The Bible. An agreed statement though might be that God originally is responsible for bringing into existence everything that IS, both seen and unseen. Since 'God' is a human description of an unseen and unknown entity, even atheists should be capable of entertaining the 'concept' without necessarily accepting all the associated 'baggage' that religion has hung upon the word. It is just that atheists see no necessity in labeling, (the mysterious force which brought the univers/es into existence), by such a profoundly 'religious' word as 'God'. I think you would just rather leave the labels aside and just call it 'mysterious'. Theologically a profound observation, I would agree.

The Biblical narrative begins with the statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."

If the creation of the universe was actually ex-nihilo, from nothing, then what did 'The Deep' consist of? Deepness implies 'a something which has depth', and what were "The Waters"? They were obviously separate from God the creator, for God 'The Spirit of God' to be 'moving or hovering' over them yet they pre-exist the earth, (which was a formless void) and they pre-existed 'Light' which, in the beginning, had not yet been created.

There is far less dichotomy between the two notions, scriptural or scientific, of the proto-creative moment than is assumed by either atheists or Christian believers. Neither is there by logic or revelation any essential reason to insist upon 'creation' being something separate in reality than would be an evolutionary sequence of events in time. It is all just a matter of human perception of divine action. If God has never changed and still behaves as God has always behaved, then evolution would fit far better into 'human experience' of divine action, than would a magical six times 24 hour day complete construction of an entire universe, which only happened the once, with no witnesses, and has never since been repeated. (The latter being an interpretation of Genesis chapter one that is of very recent innovation anyway, metaphorical interpretations of the same text have been postulated for more than 2 millennia, the recent 'literalist' interpretation only gaining widespread acceptance in the USA and then elsewhere since the 1800's.)

PS. You are right about the chances of craigdressler coming in on this discussion are remote indeed. He seems only interested in posting his fixed opinions, not responding to any challenges to defend them or justify them by further explanation or the addition of supporting grounds for his assertions.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.
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Re: [rdrcofe] Is It Harder To Be An Atheist Than It Is To Be A Believer? In reply to
Hi Chris.

You write:

<<Actually we can theorise but not postulate on what actually happened immediately after, (say for the following 1,000,000,000 years or so). After that things become more predictable and the Laws of Physics and Natural Selection have left some evidence which, if interpreted correctly, leads in a certain direction to an understanding of how events probably unfolded. >>

Yes, I agree. Just speaking simply in the post.

As for this:

<<Your difficulty, I appreciate, is in describing what the broad range of Christian scientific opinion is on the mechanics of the physical creation.>>

I was replying directly to Sarah, as I understand her beliefs about this topic. Sarah, maybe you can correct me if I am mistaken.

You add:

<<An agreed statement though might be that God originally is responsible for bringing into existence everything that IS, both seen and unseen. >>

Except for whatever existed with the Creator, that is, the Where and When and What that was the "realm" of the Creator. I will use the term "Creator" to indicate that which may have caused the beginning of the Everything that human beings are aware of, but the term "God" indicates to me, and to most here, the deity of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam...the Abrahamic God. I do not accept that particular deity as a probable Creator. Does that make sense to you?

<<I think you would just rather leave the labels aside and just call it 'mysterious'. Theologically a profound observation, I would agree. >>

I would just refer to it as "the reality that is." That there may be or have been other universes is not a bizarre concept, but that there was at some point an actual Creator is far beyond my ability to comprehend and that the deity of human imaginations was that Creator is totally unacceptable to me.

You continue:

<<If the creation of the universe was actually ex-nihilo, from nothing, then what did 'The Deep' consist of? Deepness implies 'a something which has depth', and what were "The Waters"? They were obviously separate from God the creator, for God 'The Spirit of God' to be 'moving or hovering' over them yet they pre-exist the earth, (which was a formless void) and they pre-existed 'Light' which, in the beginning, had not yet been created. >>

Indeed. Something existed where and when along with the Creator, but I do not get the sense that it was separate from the Creator, as It existed to hover over and move over whatever existed and act upon them. Another Universe?

And:

<<There is far less dichotomy between the two notions, scriptural or scientific, of the proto-creative moment than is assumed by either atheists or Christian believers. Neither is there by logic or revelation any essential reason to insist upon 'creation' being something separate in reality than would be an evolutionary sequence of events in time. It is all just a matter of human perception of divine action. >>

Maybe. All is just a matter of human perception anyway. And...we are just a minuscule speck of dirt (haha) existing for less than the moment it takes to flick us off of the time/space existence of Everything. Okay...my head hurts. Crazy

I have enough to keep me busy interpreting and dealing with my one teensy-tiny part of Everything. Maybe that is one reason why I have chosen to leave deities and religion out of my life.

But...we can talk about Craig's posts, so not all is lost.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."