Dovegiven : Hi

OK. So Jesus’ hand picked disciples, (they were not apostles until ‘sent’ by Jesus to preach the gospel), had to have the parable of the sower explained to them. Although they knew agricultural methods of the time they were at first unable to see the relevance of this parable to the spiritual concept of ‘preaching and understanding the gospel of the kingdom’, and how the reception of that message was metaphorically represented by the various literary elements in the parable. The Broadcasting Sower, the Pathway, stony ground, thorns & thistles, good soil ready tilled and receptive etc. When however they realised they didn’t understand, they asked. That was why it was to them that the secret was revealed, because they asked. Anyone else who asked would have received exactly the same response from Jesus. “Ask and it shall be given you, full measure, pressed down, overflowing”. Matt. 7:7. Once the disciples got the idea though that Jesus often said things with deeper meanings which had to be searched out and discovered rather than merely taken at face value they began to work things out for themselves. Some of the parables of Jesus probably had no formal explanation from Jesus himself during his lifetime. The Gospel writers occasionally seem to have added their own interpretation much later for the benefit of Gentile readers who otherwise might not have got the point. Since they didn’t include quotation marks in Greek it is often difficult to see where Jesus leaves off and Matthew, Mark, Luke or John comment and explain.

Once the clue is stumbled upon that ‘the seed is the word of God’, then everything else begins to fall into place.

Incidentally the seed is not The Bible. According to Jesus, the word of God existed long before the Bible was ever completed. That is why The Bible is not ‘The Word of God’. The Bible contains The Word of God. The Bible is only the container, not the contents.

Jesus is the contents. Jesus is The one and only Word of God.

Jesus did send them out preaching the kingdom of heaven was near. Matthew 10:[5] These twelve Jesus SENT forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They were sent out to heal, cleanse lepers, cast out devils, etc. In His last hours Jesus modified the instructions to begin taking money and buy a sword. Until then they (the apostles) received on the job training and reported back to share their experiences. Mark 6:30 And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and told him all things, both what they had done, and what they had taught.

That was why it was to them that the secret was revealed, because they asked.

Again, Jesus gave them the hidden spiritual message on the basis of this statement in Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
What's so hard to understand about that? The apostles heard the parables, got told the secrets of any they didn't understand, lacking the Holy Spirit in them. The basis for that knowledge was not available to unbelievers just for the asking. It still isn't that way. However, it is for the children of the Kingdom of Heaven, upon asking, but also by inspiration of the Holy Spirit from the day of Pentecost onward to today.

Matthew 7:[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: [8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Surely you don't think anyone on Earth that is not in Christ can ask then receive anything from God upon demand! That promise is for those who do His commandments, that live by faith, ask in faith believing. Jesus preached the gospel, but none of those listening to that wonderful sermon (except the apostles) that day followed Jesus for any other reason than to be fed again. They were unbelievers. Unbelievers receive nothing from God. Neither does a double minded man. Once a person is Christ's, then ask, believing, receiving. Now go back and examine the other qualifying statements in that sermon and all through Jesus' teaching that makes that abundantly clear.

The Gospel writers occasionally seem to have added their own interpretation much later for the benefit of Gentile readers who otherwise might not have got the point.

No, they were inspired by the Spirit to write the truth, all the time. Writings that had personal interpretations were not canonized. 2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

G'nite,
Jim
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Be fishers of men

Dovegiven : Hi

Jesus did send them out preaching the kingdom of heaven was near. Matthew 10:[5]

I think you will find that it was His ‘Disciples’ who asked Jesus the meaning of the parable of the sower. Luke 8:9

It was not until they returned from being ‘sent’ that they are referred to in scripture as ‘Apostles’. Luke 9:10. As a ‘literalist’ you must surely be aware that the parable of the sower came before the disciples were ‘sent out to preach the gospel’ Luke 9:6

Again, Jesus gave them the hidden spiritual message on the basis of this statement in Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

I thought we had already been through all that in previous posts.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Jesus deliberately chose to reveal the secrets of the Kingdom only to His select elite while deliberately hoodwinking the masses by feeding them misinformation, because it had been preordained by God that they should not be allowed to know the plain truth?

Don’t you think that view of the character of Jesus is insulting in view of His own words, “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matt. 7:7-8

You say this only applies to “those who do His commandments, that live by faith, ask in faith believing”.

But I don’t think you can be right in that assumption because Jesus follows by saying “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” Matt. 7:11

If this was addressed only to His chosen disciples then Jesus had a pretty low opinion of them. If He thought they, his own disciples were evil, what must He have thought of the rest to whom ‘it was not given when they asked’, ‘not opened when they knocked’, ‘not found when they sought’?

No you are most assuredly wrong Jesus was definitely applying this promise to everyone and anyone who asked, sought and knocked.

The disciples ASKED. (v. 9) So Jesus said "To YOU it has been given . . . ." (v.10) - In this case YOU means anyone who ASKS. - YOU does not mean some 'specially selected elite of God', (though I appreciate American Bible Belt Christiasns might all too often see themselves that way). The OTHERS are those who do not ASK.

Surely you don't think anyone on Earth that is not in Christ can ask then receive anything from God. . .

I most assuredly do . . . and I should hope that you do to in view of what The Author of the letter to Hebrews says on the matter.

“he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”.

Anyone who diligently seeks God will be rewarded. Who on earth would be foolish enough to demand anything of a God they honestly do not believe exists ? And where did Jesus say anything about demanding? Jesus said ASK and it will be given you. SEEK and you shall find. KNOCK and it will be opened.

So first it is necessary to believe in the possibility that God exists, then it is necessary to believe that God will hear and answer the prayer of anyone who asks expecting an answer from God.

I am convinced that God hears and answers anyone who asks for wisdom.

“If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you”.

Else if you are assuming that God only gives such 'wisdom' to His Elect and not to all it implies that God deliberately withholds wisdom from those who ask unless they are privileged to be a ‘believing Christian’ already. If that were actually the case there would be very little point preaching The Gospel to people from whom God is withholding wisdom because they are not yet ‘Christian’.

Oh No. You are quite wrong. “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few”. There is plenty of good soil out there but few to sow the seed.

No, they were inspired by the Spirit to write the truth, all the time. Writings that had personal interpretations were not canonized.

You know, I really wonder what you actually understand by the word ‘inspiration’. Your statement above seems to imply that the authors of The Gospels were not permitted by God to write what they thought but were in some way compelled to write ‘only the truth’. As if what they thought would somehow be untrue.

How can we possibly say that the personal opinions of the Gospel writers were not inspired. How can we know? The simple answer is ‘we can’t’. We can’t exclude the fact that scripture was written as a result of the author deciding HE would write it, (though we believe they were commissioned, ‘inspired’, by God to do so).

There are no words in the Bible penned by God.The Biblical authors were not controlled or taken over by God

The words were the authors own words in the author’s own style. The Gospels were not dictated by God, neither were they ‘translated’ from sheets of gold in a 'Joseph Smith' style hoax.

We can only believe that the authors were inspired by God to write what they did. As to whether it is ‘literally’ true or not, that depends on how it is read and who is reading it. The ignorant and unstable can still twist meaning to their own (and others), destruction, it is not the fault of the text though, it is the fault of the way they interpret it.

If they added their own explanations for clarification then those were inspired as well.

Best Regards Chris.

It has become vital to post much more scripture.

I think you will find that it was His ‘Disciples’ who asked Jesus the meaning of the parable of the sower. Luke 8:9

It was not until they returned from being ‘sent’ that they are referred to in scripture as ‘Apostles’. Luke 9:10. As a ‘literalist’ you must surely be aware that the parable of the sower came before the disciples were ‘sent out to preach the gospel’ Luke 9:6

Look again. Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Perhaps you forgot the difference in terms. Disciples are pupils, learners only. Jesus picked an elite team from them. When Jesus selected the twelve out from among the disciples, He called them "apostles", which title was not among the remaining disciples until Matthias was selected to replace Judas. By then the twelve apostles were also still disciples. He also commissioned the apostles as ambassadors going out with power given by Jesus, in Luke 8. Since then "apostle" has meant one who is a commissioner of Christ, an ambassador for the gospel, sent out by Christ.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Jesus deliberately chose to reveal the secrets of the Kingdom only to His select elite while deliberately hoodwinking the masses by feeding them misinformation, because it had been preordained by God that they should not be allowed to know the plain truth?

You are chasing the tail. Again, Jesus declared the spiritual lessons were His to give to the twelve. The parables carried the truth, but Jesus was not obligated to interpret the words so the people could comprehend intellectually. The reason people can't catch on to the spiritual lessons is explained by Paul in
1 Cor. 2:[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. [6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: [7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: [8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Those crowds of people listening had their spirit of man in them, but not the spirit of God. Jesus selected twelve of all His pupils, electing to give those twelve the spiritual knowledge anyway by His authority the Father gave Jesus. The Father didn't give the wisdom, knowledge, words, authority to many men making many Christs. He gave it to one, and the one gave it to some. That small group was filled with the Spirit at Pentecost, then preached the same gospel Jesus preached, some receiving only as they believe God's way. It can't be taken at will outside of God giving it.

But I don’t think you can be right in that assumption because Jesus follows by saying “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” Matt. 7:11

Jesus is comparing a brutal man who at least protects and feeds his children to the obviously far greater provisions of our heavenly Father who will give better things, teaching godliness along the way. Nothing in that sermon promises the crowd the Father will give anything they want simply by asking. The whole of the sermon outlines who is qualified to even be heard by the Father. Being "in Christ" with the spirit of Christ in us qualifies us.

The disciples ASKED. (v. 9) So Jesus said "To YOU it has been given . . . ." (v.10) - In this case YOU means anyone who ASKS. - YOU does not mean some 'specially selected elite of God', (though I appreciate American Bible Belt Christiasns might all too often see themselves that way). The OTHERS are those who do not ASK.

Look again. Your comments are based on the first false assumption. Mark 4:[9] And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. [10] And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. [11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Ask or not ask, the Kingdom secrets were for the twelve. Then comes Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
He gave them the key to unlock the parables. Then comes Mark 4:[33] And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. [34] But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

The scriptures prove you are missing the point. Reconsider.

So first it is necessary to believe in the possibility that God exists, then it is necessary to believe that God will hear and answer the prayer of anyone who asks expecting an answer from God.

I am disappointed that you dissected scriptures to make the Bible say what you want it to say, well out of context. You left off the main qualifier, faith, which is vital to emphasize when pondering Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It is not at all saying all you have to do is believe God exists and He will give you whatever you ask Him for if diligently seeking Him. Many diligently seek God, stalling in some religion, never finding God. No person can get to God anyway except through the Door: Jesus. Keep in mind that verse applies to the family of faith.

“If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you”.

The letter was to the brethren, fellow Christians, not to unbelievers in the world. The problem for a wicked man getting anything from God is like the double-minded man who receives nothing at all from God. James 1:[5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

It should be obvious not just anyone on earth can expect to receive from God just for believing He exists and then asking for whatever, even wisdom. There are conditions to be met. The diligent seeking must be in faith pleasing to God, for instance.

If that were actually the case there would be very little point preaching The Gospel to people from whom God is withholding wisdom because they are not yet ‘Christian’.

Oh No. You are quite wrong. “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few”. There is plenty of good soil out there but few to sow the seed.

You can continue teaching them worldly wisdom, try to impart your own knowledge somehow, but that coming from God will have to be taken with the Spirit of God in them. Maybe you haven't noticed that the majority of people hearing the gospel preached don't do much with it. Some folks act by faith believing while not understanding. Those are the ones God takes and floods with the mysteries of the Kingdom as they diligently seek God.

I matters not what my opinion about the God-breathed scriptures being what they are. It is however imperative that the true seeker of God will take the Bible unquestioningly as wholly inspired by the Spirit.
2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL. If by inspiration, then none of it was birthed in any mind of man. Inspiration from the Greek theopneustos indicated "God breathed". Even a secular definition indicates an idea given from out of one's own mind. Look at the root "theo" to see the idea comes from the divine.
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Be fishers of men

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Jesus deliberately chose to reveal the secrets of the Kingdom only to His select elite while deliberately hoodwinking the masses by feeding them misinformation, because it had been preordained by God that they should not be allowed to know the plain truth?

In fact Jesus plainly stated more than once the gospel of the Kingdom was not for everyone hearing about it. I will emphasize what JESUS said while on earth.
Matthew 15:[22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. [23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [25] Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. [26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. [28] Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The fact is abundantly clear, regardless of "interpretations", that Jesus was actively holding back Kingdom benefits, giving them to some, not to any that simply desired them. He made it clear His gospel must first be presented to Israel, then for Israel to take it to the Gentiles. I've already posted the other references, so will proceed to another aspect of this.

Acts 8:15-21 "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [17] Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. [18] And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, [19] Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. [20] But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. [21] Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God."

Please read the whole of it for better context. Here we have Simon, a believer following Peter's ministry, making his own interpretation of the gospel Peter and the other disciples and apostle had been preaching. He presumed it was possible to purchase the ability to lay hands on folks to be baptized in the Spirit.

I put that in as a warning against private interpretations of clearly written scriptures. The CoE doesn't allow that. It is based on the HOLY SCRIPTURES which cannot be subject to private "understandings" or "interpretations" of scriptures beyond that accepted of the scriptures and the Church fathers, the 39 Articles, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Ordinal. You are not free to adopt or inject spurious interpretations, choosing any path of acceptance of holy scriptures. That is true of all mainline Christian churches. The scriptures were recognized by the various synods as God-breathed and therefore unalterable, not evolving to suit future generations. It is not a matter of accepting some scriptures by faith as verbatim, and others as a matter of "evolution" of scriptures, but accepting them as matter of fact. God doesn't change like generations of people do. If left to personal choices as to divine inspiration there is no absolute foundation that can't be washed away by every storm of challenge. The Bible has been and shall continue to be taken as THE Word of God given to men of all generations, not to be supplanted by modern complaint. You are HIS or you are NOT. He has spoken through holy men, and that is that. Whatever modern perception of the word of God shall not be accepted in opposition to what has already been given.

Let's bring this into focus concerning "Do we have free will?" Of course, all humans do. Each individual can insist on making all that is written conform to our own thinking. We are free to do that. In doing so, some of us take the way of secular antichrists and their theory of evolution, or maybe a humanist world view religion. Some take a way that violates most of the written laws of God claimed to be "outdated". God lets every person on earth choose. It is all a matter of choices. God watches the choices made. Your own free will seals your choice and your intermediate decisions upon your physical death.

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Be fishers of men

Dovegiven : Hi there ! It's good to be back.

When Jesus selected the twelve out from among the disciples, He called them "apostles", . . . . . Perhaps you forgot the difference in terms. Disciples are pupils, learners only.

The fact remains that :

1) The disciples Jesus called Apostles were not ‘sent out’ until after they had learned the meaning of “The Sower and the seed”. It would still be a perfectly legitimate translation of the King James English to say that Jesus called his disciples, (including the ones He was later to name ‘Apostles’). There is no absolute requirement to insist that the chosen 12 were referred to as ‘Apostles’ from this moment on. In fact they clearly were not because Luke 8:9 only uses the word ‘disciples’ not ‘disciples and Apostles’ when delineating exactly who asked Jesus to more fully explain the parable.
2) The Apostles did not actually become Apostles until they were ‘sent’ and that didn’t happen for the first time until some days later after the storm on the lake, the Gerasene Demoniac, the healing of Jairus’ daughter and healing of the woman with the issue of blood.
3) The Apostles could not claim to have been ‘sent’ and therefore claim Apostolic Credentials, until having been given ‘Authority’ i.e. actually having been sent.

The fact of the matter is that scripture clearly does not refer to the twelve as being Apostles in actuality until Luke 9:10 on their actual return from being sent.

Anyway this is a silly point of contradiction since scripture clearly states it was His disciples who asked the question. Luke 8:9 and I can be as ‘literal’ with scripture as the best of them when I choose.


Look again. Your comments are based on the first false assumption. Mark 4:[9] And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. [10] And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. [11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Jesus said, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear”. This Jesus said to a large crowd. Mark 4:1 They almost all left but some remained to ask questions. Mark 4:10 those who were about Him were only with the twelve because ‘they had ears to hear’. They stayed to question Jesus more closely. It was to those present after the great crowd had departed who Jesus referred to as “Those to whom the secret of the Kingdom of God would be given”. The greater crowd who had left and were no longer among those who were still asking questions were ‘those outside’.

Jesus then addresses the remaining ‘questioners’ and asks of them. “Do you not understand this parable”? “How then will you understand any of the parables”?

This is what is known as a rhetorical question to which the answer would seem to be “Stick around with Me and you will find out”!

Jesus goes on to say, (still to those who remained from the previous great crowd and among his disciples), ““Pay attention to what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. 25For to those who have, more will be given; and from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away.”

This is entirely about understanding and insight, not wealth or almsgiving. In other words to those with insight, more insight will be given, to those without insight, even the little they have will increase their obstinate ignorance.

It should be obvious not just anyone on earth can expect to receive from God just for believing He exists and then asking for whatever, even wisdom. There are conditions to be met.

Are There ? It may be obvious to one who has been indoctrinated in a very exclusive nay condemnatory theological outlook perhaps but I think there are scripture verses that say that God is impartial (1 Pet. 1:17) and giveth severally to whom He chooses (Rom 9:18). The only condition I know of is that God requires ‘A humble and a contrite heart’ (Ps. 51:17)

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Math 7:8-11

Since when has wisdom not been a good thing in your opinion?

Regards Chris.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Is the wisdom of God a holy thing?

With the love of God answer I,
Jim
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Dovegiven : Hi Jim -

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Dogs and swine are incapable of making a sincere and humble verbal request. Knowing the nature, character and general attitude of some people Jesus is advising not providing them with information that they can abuse and exploit you with. (lest they turn and rend you). One example might be that it would be foolish indeed for a Christian to walk into a roadside bar and publicly announce that he is committed by faith to the following principle

“If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again”.

Common sense tells us that there would be at least some ‘swine’, ‘dogs’ and riff–raff within hearing. In their case 'keeping your big trap shut' would be an example of withholding from them information about yourself that is holy. If they heard this from your own lips they would just exploit you. You'd get rolled in the nearest alley.

That is an entirely different situation from a person, (any person) sincerely asking of God for knowledge and wisdom.

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

I’m not at all in agreement with a “Holy Huddle – us and them” interpretation of this text. It does not apply exclusively to “Christians”. It applies to anyone who asks in humility believing that God will answer and (knowing God as I do) probably even to those who only just have enough faith to ask in desperation.

God gives liberally to those who humbly ask in faith. And that just means in faith, not just in the “Christian Faith”.

And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. Ps. 50:15

He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation. Ps. 91:15

Regards Chris.

Using literal understanding of the ways of those animals, Jesus was warning against giving Kingdom treasure to their human counterparts (behavior-wise). I will resort to the well respected and quite accurate Barnes Notes on the Bible since you have trouble accepting my comments. Reference source http://bible.cc/matthew/7-6.htm

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
"Give not that which is holy ... - By some the word "holy" has been supposed to mean "flesh offered in sacrifice," made holy, or separated to a sacred use; but it probably means here "anything connected with religion" - admonition, precept, or doctrine. Pearls are precious stones found in shell-fish, chiefly in India, in the waters that surround Ceylon. They are used to denote anything especially precious, Revelation 17:4; Revelation 18:12-16; Matthew 13:45. In this place they are used to denote the doctrines of the gospel. "Dogs" signify people who spurn, oppose, and abuse that doctrine; people of special sourness and malignity of temper, who meet it like growling and quarrelsome curs, Philippians 3:2; 2 Peter 2:22; Revelation 22:15. "Swine" denote those who would trample the precepts underfoot; people of impurity of life; those who are corrupt, polluted, profane, obscene, and sensual; those who would not know the value of the gospel, and who would tread it down as swine would pearls, 2 Peter 2:22; Proverbs 11:22. The meaning of this proverb, then, is, do not offer your doctrine to those violent and abusive people who would growl and curse you; nor to those especially debased and profligate who would not perceive its value, would trample it down, and would abuse you."


I am holding to this site's policy of limiting quotes in one post. I recommend reading all of that. Regardless of fear of retaliation we should witness wherever the Lord sends us. However, it should be clear there are certain classes of people that don't deserve light, and are not to be given it by our own decision. What classes of people? There are many referred to in the Bible, chiefly fools, the wicked, rebellious backsliders, satanic scoffers, mote hunters, in general people flaunting immoral behavior knowing they insult a society.

Consider the adulterer who was sentenced by Paul in 1 Cor. 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor. 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Paul continues with 1 Cor. 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



That man was typically classified as a "dog". He was to be completely shunned without help of any kind, not even eating at the same table with Christians. We learn in 2 Cor the man eventually repented and was to be taken back into fellowship. In that way he didn't stay in Satan's power and doomed.

I checked a dozen other commentaries that all agree as to the object lesson above. Not one commentary missed the point. Once we can agree on the proper lesson I'll discuss it in my own words, covering direct Bible sources.

Blessings all day long,
Jim
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Be fishers of men

Dovegiven : Hi :

You say : The meaning of this proverb, then, is, do not offer your doctrine to those violent and abusive people who would growl and curse you; nor to those especially debased and profligate who would not perceive its value, would trample it down, and would abuse you."

I said : Common sense tells us that there would be at least some ‘swine’, ‘dogs’ and riff–raff within hearing. In their case 'keeping your big trap shut' would be an example of withholding from them information about yourself that is holy. If they heard this from your own lips they would just exploit you. You'd get rolled in the nearest alley.

Apart from the fact of your quote being written in more scholarly and formal language, what is the actual difference between the two staements?

I think I shall just leave other readers of our previous posts to try and work out what the actual bone of contention is between my version and yours.

I have read and re-read your comments and still fail to see what exactly you are disagreeing with.

Apart from the possibility that you may be trying to put up a case in support of the notion that God only answers the prayers of 'Literal Fundamentalist Christians' and withholds good things from anybody else on the planet who might petition Him.

I take it that is not what you are trying to say, is it? Please tell me it isn't so that I can believe we actually are talking about the same God, you and I.

PS. I am impressed that you have sought out the metaphorical interpretation of the 'Pearls and Swine' proverb. At least you don't think it's about actually feeding pearls to pigs. I'm relieved.

I have to say though that I find no support in it for the notion that God gives good things only to the righteous. It is just pragmatic advice to believers in dealing with the world. God alone decides who and why He will endow with wisdom.

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; . . . . . . . . . . . .That saith of Cyrus, (A Gentile King over the exciled Israelites) - He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

God can give good things to anyone He chooses.

Regards Chris.

Dogs and swine are incapable of making a sincere and humble verbal request. Knowing the nature, character and general attitude of some people Jesus is advising not providing them with information that they can abuse and exploit you with. (lest they turn and rend you). One example might be that it would be foolish indeed for a Christian to walk into a roadside bar and publicly announce that he is committed by faith to the following principle
“If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again”.

We differ significantly.
1. Dogs and swine making any verbal requests was and still isn't in question.
2. Those animals are indiscriminate consumers, always have been.
3. Jesus taught that Christians can expect abuse and exploitation (persecution) from the world in general, not just from people classed as dogs and swine.
4. The trampling was said of holy things and "pearls", which are not things of men, but of God. Jesus didn't say the dogs and swine would trample us. He said they would turn and rend (wreck) us.
5. Going into the bar wouldn't be wise, it being doubtful the Lord would direct that move. Announcing that doctrine in there would be giving holy things, pearls, to them. To avoid senseless destruction, Jesus said don't do that.

There are plenty of people seeking to hear from God legitimately. Those are the ones God will send us to. A prophet might be equipped to deliver a warning to dogs and swine without risking hurt, but that is not a day to day habit for most of us to assume.

Dog/swine categories of people are like those Pharisees in Matthew 12:22-37, condemned in unforgiveness. They pervert what we preach/teach without hesitation, making fun of God's ambassadors, jesting and blaspheming while knowing better just out of normal human dignity. Physical violence isn't indicated as literal, but cutting the gospel messenger with their words certainly is expected. Jesus called them vipers, not that those men bit Jesus. They turned and rent Jesus with their words and very thoughts. He left them in their hopeless state with Matthew 12:[36] But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. [37] For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

That's what dogs and swine should hear. Save the holy things and pearls for those God calls to come to Jesus. There is no repentance available for such people, just like there is no hope for a dog or swine to behave as "gentlemen". They are what they are.

That's why I like to conclude most posts with "Blessings to all seekers of the truth" (the truth being Jesus himself).

Jim

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Be fishers of men