The all-in-one Christian Web Site Community - Praize.com
Skip to Content

I like Penn Jilette.

(Page 1 of 2)
Quote Reply
I like Penn Jilette.
Penn Jilette has some honest views about theism and he doesn't mind defending them against even those whom he shouldn't have to. I agree with what he is saying here and, although it is about the Catholic Church and the choosing of the Pope, I suspect he would, as I have done, defend the right of those who follow their church's teachings, to support those teachings against those who would alter those teachings to better have them reflect more modernistic notions.

Penn Jillette Destroys Modernist "Catholic" Piers Morgan - YouTube

And...yet, I have also argued against the teachings of Catholic insistence on no birth control and understand Morgan's stance. Still...taking the following of Catholic teachings, when if followed there would be no chance of getting STDs or AIDS because abstinence until marriage and then monogamy after means safety concerning such diseases. A complicated modern day dilemma.

But, I thought some might like to view this video and it might bring some discussion.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Awesome video! Thank you for sharing it. I wanted to hear more. It ended too soon!
So... I am going to listen to it again later when I have more time. I do have opinions on the subject.
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
They spoke about birth control. I was in the Catholic church when the debates were going on in the early 60;s. I had four children under the age of five. The "pill" was introduced, and since there was controversy on it, most of us felt it was okay to use it.

IF people were to stick to Christian values of not having sex before marriage, this would not be a major issue. Nor would disease be a major issue. Nor would the situation in uneducated countries be an issue. But they don't. I understand both sides of the issue. The Pope is in a difficult decision (as were they all) with people wanting to "modernize" Christianity. His job is difficult, we must pray for him.
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Thanks for an interesting and thought provoking video Jeanne. The subject of birth control has been debated in more than one religious organization. As far as I know, it is only the Catholic church that opposes it in any form. I personally am on your side of the issue. I do believe, however that the Catholic church is wrong about contraceptives. They obviously would save lives as you pointed out. The only form of birth control I completely stand against is abortion. It is murder since life begins at conception. Consider the following quote from Dr. Fritz
Baumgartnr, MD:

"There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate." (http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html)

Naturally that would outlaw the morning after pill as well since human life already exists in the mother's womb.

While I agree that a church has the right to defend its beliefs, I also believe that each individual has the right and responsibility to study Scripture and to examine those beliefs for himself. We need more Christians like the Bereans who, according to Luke, "...were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11) I personally have left a church because after studying its teaching I discoovered that it did not measure up to Scripture.

Should the Catholic Church change its views? I say yes. There have been instances through its history when one Pope disagreed with another and, even when the church appologizes for its errors. I'll close with another interesting quote about abortion:


"You have to become a bit schizophrenic. In one room, you encourage the patient that the slight irregularity in the fetal heart is not important, that she is going to have a fine, healthy baby. Then, in the next room you assure another woman, on whom you just did a saline abortion, that it is a good thing that the heartbeat is already irregular… she has nothing to worry about, she will NOT have a live baby… All of a sudden one noticed that at the time of the saline infusion there was a lot of activity in the uterus. That’s not fluid currents. That’s obviously the fetus being distressed by swallowing the concentrated salt solution and kicking violently and that’s to all intents and purposes, the death trauma… somebody has to do it, and unfortunately we are the executioners in this instance." - Dr. Szenes, abortionist

I hope this helps wih your discussion.


Allen
Quote Reply
Re: [Probiblos1948] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Hello Sarah and Allen.

I think that the idea that Roman Catholic doctrine should change because the modern world demands that it does is the crux of the dilemma for the Pope at any time during history. If doctrine changes, then it is no longer Roman Catholic. Those who want a different doctrine can decide for themselves to leave the church, not worrying about excommunication because that is just another doctrine of an archaic church....right? So is only male priests a doctrine and, therefore, not subject to change. It must be a very, very difficult position for the Pope to take by not allowing condom use. Of course, he knows it would prevent STDs and unwanted pregnancies, but it is against doctrine.

If keeping to Roman Catholic doctrine destroys the church in the 21st century, then what does that say about the faith or the, supposedly, faithful? I know that many Protestant religions have altered themselves to appeal to the congregations of different times and some churches have all but passed away for unwillingness to change their doctrine. I suspect this is one reason why believers walk away from organized religion and many come to disbelieve in all deities. If told that this one doctrine is the one and only, but then it alters itself for convenience and popularity; what was its worth to begin with?

Is this why you, Sarah, have a problem with the term "religion?" I can surely appreciate the constant of Jesus Christ in a purer form of Christianity and held to that for a long time before declaring my atheism.

Allen, as for abortion; it is the killing of the newly conceived human or the nearly born human. It is, also, a complicated issue for any time in history and more so for this age. No matter the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy, abortion is the saddest and most troubling aspect of human procreation.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Sarah, love your heart! Four under five years old...wowsers!

This whole birth control pill thing is a double edged sword, is it not? I think if the government had not destroyed society by destroying the family, it would have ended up very differently...but, instead we have 70% of black children born to unwed mothers and overall, I think, 20% of births to unwed mothers. I would suspect in some areas that number is higher.

Now, we have Plan B, which I think is a good thing, until you learn that it often acts as an abortifactant, because conception has already occurred. Still..yes, it kills the newly conceived, but...I would rather that then have abortions at 20 weeks or later...or earlier. So..I am not fully pro-life, as I still consider that the woman must have some consideration in some circumstances and that the newly conceived must be sacrificed for the benefit of the woman's life.

I am thankful that birth control is so much more reliable now, but very dismayed by the lack of consideration for the awesome responsibility of procreation and the disrespect women hold themselves in as the vessels of the miracle of life.

How did we get here and how do we get back to sanity?

This is probably a new thread and I will start it when I get the chance...soon, cuz I am currently in a similar discussion on FB.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Hi, Jeanne,
Abortion is wrong on so many levels that I choose not to even discuss it! The best birth control is called "self-control"! Young people these days have been robbed of their right to grow up in a family with a mom and a dad... well, I'm not even going to get started. :(

Regarding the Pope and the Catholic church, he definitely needs our prayers. He is between a rock and a hard place and I would not have his job for anything! Society has changed, but the Catholic church has not... and the Bible has not. The Bible is just as true today as it was centuries ago. I believe that the Catholic church should stick to the Bible and not succumb to the pressure of the (selfish) people. Like you say: if they don't like the doctrine, they should leave the church. People are so used to doing things half-way and if they don't like something they just don't do it, this is a selfish and undisciplined world in which we live!.

That is EXACTLY why I have trouble with the word "religious". Religion is described as man's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. The religious do things to please themselves and expect God to go along with them. Christians desire to please God, to grow closer to Him and expect Him to change them.

Thank you for posting this discussion and I look forward to your next one. (BTW, you are allowed to post in the Christian (and other religions' threads. You don't have to stick to the Atheist forum. But suit yourself)
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
I have tried several times to reply to this but my browser (Firefox keeps crashing). Each time, I lose the information.

Let me first say that the Catholic doctrine has changed several times through the years. It still remains the Catholic church and I personally believe it is the Great Whore described in Revelation 17 and 19.

Secondly it was Martin Luther who wanted the church to correct errors he saw in the church and started the Protestant Revolution. It is by no neans Biblical Christianity but a perversion of true Christianity as taught be Christ and the apostles.

I am not saying there are no true Christians in the church. I have known some. They did as you suggested, though and left it a they studied and discovered the truth.

Third, It is not modern society the church should adjust to but the principles found in Scripture. They are our rule of faith and practice. Where does this put the Catholics? 1 Timothy 4:1-3 describes it well, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

As for abortion, I know of only one case where I can approve. If the mother's life is in danger (as wih a tubal pregnancy) an abortion is self defense for the mother and not a means of birth control. Under those circumstances it is permitted.
Quote Reply
Re: [Probiblos1948] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
As for abortion, I know of only one case where I can approve. If the mother's life is in danger (as wih a tubal pregnancy) an abortion is self defense for the mother and not a means of birth control. Under those circumstances it is permitted.

That is the gospel according to Probiblos. :) If Jesus were walking the earth, what do you think He would do in that situation? He would pray and everything would be made right. Shame on us for not recognizing our God-given power of prayer and using it in ALL situations! My! How different thngs would be.

I don't want to start a rabbit trail, but how we as Christians use what God has given us and what Jesus died for is at the root of it all. If we were truly walking the path we should, neither birth control or abortion would be an issue. So, in my opinion, the Catholic church is between a rock and a hard place. I am praying that they will choose God and all things will come together as they should.

(PS. Allen, try using IE or Google. I use both and never have any trouble.)
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Interesting answer,. Jesus could heal. He gave the apostles the power to heal. But, let me ask, Do you go to Doctors or take medicine or follow the teaching of James 5:14-15, "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."

I believe in prayer but I also know of a daughter in law who lost a child at birth in spite of the best care available and constant prayers that healing would occur. Those prayers seemed to be working at first. A hole in the child's heart closed but, he died in her arms 30 minutes after birth.

Her life wasn't in danger but a tubal pregnancy is a different matter and a tough decision has to be made.
Quote Reply
Re: [Probiblos1948] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
A wise friend of mine (and yours) once said: If you believe in God's healing, then believe in God's healing; if you believe in doctors, then believe in doctors.

That has stuck with me... But that is not the topic. The topic is the catholic church. :)

(and PLEASE don't think I am criticizing anyone for the choices that they make)
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Sorry I got off topic. I have, however stated my opinion of the Catholic church. I believe it will be the center of the rebellious false religion of the Tribulation period. Also, I believe any true Christian should be out of it and into a different, Bible believing church. I do not in any way accept the Pope as a representative of the Lord.
Quote Reply
Re: [Probiblos1948] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Allen, I used to always write my post on a word document and then copy and paste to the forum. Now, as the internet is better here, I will only do that if my post starts getting long and complicated with bits of incredible genius thinking on my part that fades quickly should I lose the post by getting bumped off line by wind or gremlins or fate. I sympathize with your frustration over lost posts.

I had forgotten just how sticky the concept of the Catholic Church is for some. Still, I would want any church, religion, deity belief to stick by its original doctrines instead of selling out to popular pressure from its followers....just on principal.

I have argued the same for atheists. If we do not believe in deities and think it is important to rear our children as atheists, then we cannot allow them to casually "go to church" with their theist friends or be influenced by theist doctrine until they are of an age to fully understand why their family is atheist. If influence is unavoidable, then communication about theist beliefs versus atheist beliefs must be an ongoing family topic. I know the term "beliefs" could be attacked by some theists, so I will just assume that those reading here understand what I mean and will refrain for the sake of this discussion.

Allen, now you have me all worried about the internet...copy and paste going on. :)

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
I remember you telling me about haw you wrote replies and pasted them beore. Is that why you worry about copying and pasting from the internet?

Having studied theology in some detail (still studying) I can tell you that theology has in fact changed through the years. Different views develop and call for an examination of your beliefs. That is why conferences are held and statements issued to declare what the doctrines of the church is.

You also have the problem of application of Scripture. It is inspired by God but written to a people of a different culture and time. The interpreter has to determine what it meant to the people of that day and then apply it to our culture today. it is not an easy job and is why debates take place in the forums here at Praize. Sometimes, you hold fast to the doctrine as written. Other times changes need to be made. I'm sure you've seen the same thing in the development of atheistic philosophy and science through the years.

Birth control is one thing that the Catholics might re-examine. There are others. One change I do know of is that there was a time when it was forbidden to eat meat on Friday. You could, however eat fish. That doctrine has now been done away with.

One of the hardest things to learn in life is the necessity of examining what you are told, read, taught and determine what the truth really is. It is a task each generation has to face.

By the way, getting slightly off the subject, iI would like to recommend a movie to you. It is called Monumental and deals with American history.
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Jeanne, I am writing this to you, although it is in answer to Probiblos. :) The reason for that is that I totally disagree with him... and herein you have the cunundrum of the Bible vs. religion!.

In my opinion, religion interprets the Bible. I don't. I take it for exactly what it says. Scripture by scripture. I do not try to interpret it. If I don't understand it, I pray until I have revelation. Therefore, for me, it makes no difference what is going on in the world or in the churches. What matters is what the Bible says. As I understand the scripture that the Bible uses to say that birth control is not acceptable by God, that is a rather (in my opinion) far-fetched interpretation. I believe that the whole thing has been trumped up and exaggerated by the devil to divide believers... which, of course, would be another issue!

The Lord has given us free choice, which is why we can have three people here with three totally different opinions. :)
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
OOPS! " The reason for that is that I totally disagree with him"

Question (Again off topic in a sense bur, if you take the Bible as it stands, do you believe a woman should pastor a church? After all, Paul satd that a Bishop should be the husband of one wife. No woman meets that qualification.
Quote Reply
Re: [Probiblos1948] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Food for thought and another topic. :)

The beauty of Praize and of Christianity is that we can agree to disagree. I am never going to tell you how to walk your walk or what you should think or believe. I love you in the love of the Lord and know we will enjoy heaven together one day soon.
Blessings ~ Sarah

Last edited by:

praizeop2: Mar 26, 2013, 10:55 AM
Quote Reply
Re: [Probiblos1948] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Hi Allen.

I worry about the internet provider bumping me offline for whatever reason it in its infinite confusion decides. That is why I copy and paste my posts after writing them in word or copy and paste to word while writing them in forum.

Yes...have heard about Monumental from my fav guy, Glenn Beck. (heavy sigh from anyone here on Praize familiar with my following of an alcoholic Mormon talk show host...."entertainment and enlightenment"..."the Truth has no agenda"...blah, blah, blah) Have not, however, seen it. The story sounds merely wonderful. :)

There is a difference between what is RC doctrine and what is not (another d word...can't think of it). Doctrine will not change, while the other is subject to a decision making process and has altered with the ages.

Seems to me that some things simply cannot change for a religion to maintain its integrity. That is, some things must be changeless despite different times...they must speak to each age as Truth, as divine Truth. For me, an atheist, there is the same changeless Truths that hold my integrity in check.

Well...that is me, anyway.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Hi Sarah.

The question would be then...how does one distinguish between "interpretation" and "revelation" if all such acts are taking place inside the same person?

And...do you work with both the OT and the NT in the same manner?

We are sort of on topic, are we not? I mean..if it is just we three, who really cares how far off we get? Oh..that would be the operator of this site, huh?

Laugh Oh...it is good to laugh with you two!

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Oops, wait a minute...."free choice" ...you know I don't believe in free will, although I accept that we must behave as if we have it, since we wish to live in a form of civilized society. I submit that we can also philosophize concerning free choice or free will, because we must ponder and wonder as if we actually have it in order to maintain a form of sanity.

It was a devout young Christian who debated with me for over an hour years and years ago, who made me finally accept that I do not believe in the concept of Free Will. He was not pleased with the outcome, because he felt that if I, as an atheist, accepted Free Will, then I had not an atheistic leg to stand upon...and, therefore, must accept a creator deity.

So...for what appears to be our free choice to be here is actually a myriad of influences dating back to the beginning of time/space, which has brought us together. But...that is just me.
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
It is not the truth that changes but, the application of truth. One example would be the use of the PC. I sit in the comfort of my home and talk to people from around the world. Am I being obedient to Christ's command to go into all the world by doing so? Paul walked, traveled by ship and spread the Gospel. Is that what I should do?

The movie is well worth watching. I subscribe to Netflix and watched it there. Admittedly, it is about the religious basis of the foundind of America but, it will make you think.

Perhaps the word you are looking for is tradition. I'll find some changes in the RC doctrine for examples for you.

Truth has a ot of characteristics:
1. As you say, it never changes.
2. It applies to all men.
3. It is absolute in its authority.
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Sure we can, Sarah. Someday, when we meet in Heaven, I'll owe you a big hug for being so special.
Quote Reply
Re: [jeanne53] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Jeanne, almost 900 people have read your OP! Over 300 have read my last post. I absolutely do not understand why people do not post. :( If nothing else, it would SO boost our ratings!!!

Anyway, I do want to clarify my definitions. I know I have said this before, but it bears repeating:
The definition of 'religion' is "man's attempt to reach God".
The definition of ' Christianity' is "God's attempt to reach man.
I'm not sure exactly how this fits in with our previous discussion, but there must be some way to tie it up with Penn Jilette or the Catholic church. LOL

If you would care to discuss this, I can start another thread.
Also, yes, the difinitions, etc., of interpretation and revelation would be another topic. Would you like to start it?

Hugs to you and Probiblos
Blessings ~ Sarah
Quote Reply
Re: [praizeop2] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Sarah :

In my opinion, religion interprets the Bible. I don't. I take it for exactly what it says.


Surely, whatever we read, including The Bible, we take for what we ‘think’ it means. Sometimes we are right and sometimes not. That implies a certain amount of ‘interpretation’ is going on between the words on the page and our understanding of what the words add up to. Sometimes the ‘meaning’ is fairly obvious but other times it can be far from obvious to us, especially when we think we understand it but don't. That is why scripture should be read and meditated upon, wrestled over, compared with other scripture and experience, studied and discussed with others. Not just read in the assumption that it’s meaning must be obvious to us.

A single word is rarely enough to convey all it’s meaning. The 500 words most used in the English language each have an average of 23 different meanings. The word "round," for instance, has 70 distinctly different meanings. A single sentence is rarely enough to fully describe an idea. A single paragraph rarely conveys as much truth as a book. A book cannot impart as much wisdom as a library. All language is limited and subject to interpretation, particularly the language of The Bible, the relevance of which has different aspects depending on ‘context and interpretation’ and it’s application is both temporally specific, (as in the Jewish hygiene and sacrifice laws in Leviticus), and also eternally relevant in principle, if not actually in practice, to us today.

There must be many ambiguous and apparently contradictory sentences in the Bible which defy being ‘taken for exactly what it says’. One should not read any book without discernment of possible allegorical or metaphorical meanings, because both the allegorical and the metaphorical, (if originally intended by the author), are always more enlightening than a merely literal reading of the text.

Regards Chris.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.
Quote Reply
Re: [rdrcofe] I like Penn Jilette. In reply to
Hello Chris,

Surely, whatever we read, including The Bible, we take for what we ‘think’ it means.

Then when a man says that the heaven and earth are created for each of us the moment we are born, how would you judge that statement? Right or wrong?

scripture should be read and meditated upon, wrestled over, compared with other scripture and experience, studied and discussed with others. Not just read in the assumption that it’s meaning must be obvious to us.

I agree with everything except "experience". You judge experience by Scripture and not the reverse. The man who saw a 600 foot tall Jesus had an expeience but, i wasn't Biblical. In fact, I wonder what he had been smoking at the time.

Otherwise, good post, my friend.