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Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners)

 
Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners)
Topics on this rarely come up, but there are still people that refuse to believe humans are born with a sin nature. They claim babies are innocent and that a death sentence is not warranted by God until first sin. I've had people go as far as to say the verses I shared are poetic, and not meant to be taken any more literal than Tolkien. This is utter blasphemy and should not be coming from our brothers and sisters.

Psalm 51:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This verse tells us that we are shapen in iniquity. This means when God knit us together in the womb we were being formed in iniquity. There are no other way for this verse to be interpreted, unless the reader is trying to get crafty to endorse their personal theology. It's that simple.

Psalm 58:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The verse above is poetic, but that doesn't make it fiction. The meaning is not even abstract. "The wicked are estranged from the womb." That means estrangement, or being outside what is meant to be acceptable, is in the womb. "they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." proves that not only are we estranged in the womb, we go astray as soon as we're born, committing to spiritual lies.

If anyone still has doubts on this, this next verse should crush it:

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." Plain and simple sin is only not imputed when there is no law. There is a law, therefore sin is imputed. We can go deeper by revealing the law in heaven: 

Revelation 21:17 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nothing unclean is allowed to enter heaven. We are purified sometime after resurrection. "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." This change is not only to make us holy and acceptable to God, but also to kill sin and keep it from being imputed ever again.
 
Re: [ProjectExodus] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
This is a great post. I hope you will post often!
Blessings ~ Sarah
 
Re: [praizeop2] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
This is a miserable post that urges believers to hate themselves as worthless sinners from the day they were conceived until the day they die in fear of not having been good enough for a God that supposedly loves them.

I meant what I said about rearing children with this philosophy; it is psychological and emotional child abuse.

The worst part is that this sort of thinking and belief is hardest on those who are already struggling.

And, it never stops, because no matter what a believer in Christ does to prove himself, with this attitude, it is never enough to make him worthy of Christ's sacrifice.

This is one of the worst aspects of fanatical Christian belief and it is often played out by individuals in terrible ways upon themselves and even more often upon their spouses and children.

Decent Christians should have nothing to do with this sort of ignorance. Now there is a discussion that would be worth having.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [ProjectExodus] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Hi ProjectExodus:

This first post of yours is a good effort overall, but does not get an A+ for an understanding of God's Grace or 10/10 for understanding of the terms of The New Covenant of which Jesus Christ is the Mediator and Sacrifice on behalf of the entire human race.

You make a number of points which appear to be valid interpretations of scripture, but in fact are not. The fault being a fundamental misunderstanding concerning God's Everlasting Sworn Promise the Abram and his Seed, which is the very basis of our assurance of salvation.

The nuanced way in which you have put your case makes it difficult to refute, even though it is fundamentally flawed and grossly misrepresents the character and honesty of God.

I hope therefore that this exposition of the case for the infants of believers being "Holy" to God, far from being born in iniquity as you wrongly suggest, are Covenant Bound and "God's Children" from conception.

It is only "The Wicked" who are 'estranged from the womb'. We are also according to the scripture 'Fearfully and Wonderfully made'. Our human nature is therefore far more complex than your erroneous article suggests.

"For thou hast possessed my reins:
thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made:
marvellous are thy works;
and that my soul knoweth right well.
My substance was not hid from thee,
when I was made in secret,
and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect;
and in thy book all my members were written,
which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God!
how great is the sum of them!
If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand:
when I awake, I am still with thee."
Ps.139:13-18.

Quote:
Read this:

So now we seem to have refuted all the nonsense of the infant baptism gainsayers, with their "But it's not anywhere in the New Testament" idiocy, we can perhaps move on and discuss the actual issue at stake, and it is THIS:

God, in the Old Testament, swore to Abraham an everlasting covenant with an everlasting promise:

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."
Gen. 1-14.

God clearly kept his promise sworn to Abraham. To suggest otherwise is to impugn the honesty of God, and if we cannot rely on THAT what CAN we rely upon?

"To perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies
might serve him without fear,
In holiness and righteousness before him,
all the days of our life.


And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest:
for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people
by the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God;

whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace."
Luke 1:72-79

"He hath holpen his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy;
As he spake to our fathers,
to Abraham, AND to his seed FOR EVER."
Luke 1:54-55.

Acts 3:25, 7:8, 13:26. Rom.4:1-25.

This oath that God swore to Abraham is The Everlasting Covenant. It was sworn to Abraham by God 400 years before The Law was given to Moses and can never be cancelled or annulled unless God can break His sworn Word.

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." Gal.3:17-18.

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Gal.3:6-9.

The PROMISE is why the children of believers are counted "Holy" by God, yet the children of unbelievers remain "unclean".

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." 1 Cor.7:14.

Now concerning the replacement of circumcision of males under the Everlasting Covenant by baptism of equally male and female.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom.2:28-29

"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called." 1 Cor.7:18-20.

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. Acts.10:44-45.

"The Holy Ghost fell upon others after they were baptized, to confirm them in the faith; but upon these Gentiles before they were baptized, to show that God does not confine himself to outward signs. The Holy Ghost fell upon those who were neither circumcised nor baptized; it is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. They magnified God, and spake of Christ and the benefits of redemption. Whatever gift we are endued with, we ought to honor God with it. The believing Jews who were present, were astonished that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also. By mistaken notions of things, we make difficulties for ourselves as to the methods of Divine providence and grace. As they were undeniably baptized with the Holy Ghost, Peter concluded they were not to be refused the baptism of water, and the ordinance was administered. The argument is conclusive; can we deny the sign to those who have received the things signified?" (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary.)

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands." Col.2:11-14.

This clearly demonstrates the equivalence of baptism to circumcision as symbolic of the "circumcision made without hands", which is regeneration by The Holy Spirit, in believing Adults, (to whom this text is addressed).

The promise of God to Abraham and his offspring, (those who have faith in Christ as Lord and Savior), is that their children will be "Holy" and are "God's Children", not 'unclean' as are those of unbelievers.

"Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, That thou hast slain MY children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?" Ezek.16:20-21.

So the children of believers are not THEIRS to do with as they please. They are GOD's children from the day of their conception, and as such are Covenant Bound and Covenant Covered and "Holy" to God.

THAT is why it is permitted to signify their full entitlement to membership of Christ's Church by Baptising them.

In due course, all being well, they growing in the knowledge of Their Lord and Saviour and his teaching, they will themselves 'close with His Covenant' on their own behalf, understand and keep to their promises to Him on their behalf, and fully avail themselves of the Free Gift of Salvation offered them by God their Father.

If they feel it necessary to undergo full immersion baptism later in life to demonstrate a new found faith in Jesus Christ, then that is OK if it strengthens their weak faith. Otherwise their original baptism, (equivalent to infant circumcision), is perfectly adequate. Rom.2:28-29.


You say: Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." Plain and simple sin is only not imputed when there is no law. There is a law, therefore sin is imputed."

You have completely ignored the fact that this sentence states the fact that there is no longer any "Law" condemning believers. There is only the "Promise" which came 430 years earlier than The Law and pertains to all believers and their children, just as the 'Promise' pertained to Abram and his Seed, forever.

Your article demonstrates the fact that 'Baptist theology' is ignorant of the operation of The Covenant of Grace. It is therefore ignorant of the extent of Salvation and the Gracious Character of God.

Even an atheist, relatively ignorant of the scriptures, could sense the errors contained in it.
.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Jan 28, 2019, 12:43 AM
 
Re: [jeanne53] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Jeanne, I have to discount this post just as I did the one you wrote that I deleted. This one should also be deleted, but I am choosing to respond to it.

You choose to disagree with Biblical posts without ever reading the Bible. You did it in the post I deleted, and you are doing it here. No one here really cares about your atheistic beliefs except for the fact on how they affect your life now and how they will in the future. Especially when you are writing in a theological forum. As for now, I know you don't care that there are people here that care about your eternal destination. Instead of arguing with us, you might want to take some time to find out why we care. Your future is daily written by your thoughts and actions, just as ours are. The only difference is the outcome. Ours, as Christians is secure... even if we make mistakes in the future... we know where we are going and what is involved in our eternal future.

So in the meantime, I will ask you not to respond to posts written on Scripture until you have read where they come from. You have had more than your share of love and allowances here. Feel free to post in the Atheist Debates forums. http://www.praize.com/...Atheist_Debate_F137/
Blessings ~ Sarah

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praizeop2: Jan 28, 2019, 1:12 PM
 
Re: [praizeop2] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Sarah, what I know of Christians who believe such is what I have experienced in life and read about. That does not require a total knowledge of the Bible, such as Chris has.

What I know is that many Christians misinterpret the Bible, whether through ignorance or mischief or mere laziness, as they follow their religious leaders without ever questioning.

What I also know is that many more Christians only read selected verses of the Bible, especially those parts that are specified to them by those they trust.

I do find the idea of being born into sin and a sinner from the start and forever having to work to alleviate those sins, while pitifully accepting that it can never be done because the individual is a sinner simply by living, to be abhorrent and detrimental to any condition of the soul that produces a harmonic life.

I do find that this attitude contributes to self-flagellation, both literally and figuratively. And..that those so inclined often place terrible burdens upon their children to be pure, which they never can be, and which in turn destroys the parent-child relationship. It is not unusual for a parent so driven to insist that he or she must beat the devil out of the child in order to save its soul, thus compounding the emotional abuse by making it actual physical abuse.

I don't need to find that in the Bible to know it is wrong and without charity, which is more how human beings should behave if they follow the prime commandment from their Christ, that is, to love one another.

I do know that the condition of being a "miserable sinner" works against the person who most needs help and when that person continues to fail, the consequences can be not only sad, but terrible.

You know, I have read much of the Bible, Sarah. I am also fairly intelligent and educated. My comments really had nothing to do with the Bible, but with the reality of such beliefs and their consequences.

In fact, these were not atheistic beliefs, but the reasonings of a mind questioning the attitudes derived from a few verses of scripture and interpreted by an individual. I suspect there are devout Christians who might have written the same if they reasoned as I have.

We can discuss our futures and security in Atheist Debate, if you wish.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Chris-

"For thou hast possessed my reins:
thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made:
marvellous are thy works;
and that my soul knoweth right well.
My substance was not hid from thee,
when I was made in secret,
and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect;
and in thy book all my members were written,
which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God!
how great is the sum of them!
If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand:
when I awake, I am still with thee." Ps.139:13-18.

Many..well, most of the Psalms are beautiful and uplifting. This one is one of the best in my humble atheistic opinion. If ever there was one that most perfectly spoke to the communion of the Creator with its beloved creations, it is this one.

Makes even this atheist tear up.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [jeanne53] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Greetings all,
There seems to be a misconception of the Gospel - the Good News.
The God of the Bible- both the old & the new Testaments clearly identifies Himself as the creator of all things and that all the other gods are made by humans and are not 'gods' but idols made from natural materials but have no power because they are inanimate statues.
The God of the Bible has a name which is 'I AM WHO AM' - YHWH, Jehovah, and is Spirit, Soul, & Body. He (They) made man in their own image - perfect and having a free will to do and act righteously with only 1 restriction that carried a death sentence. Adam & Eve were free to do/live good righteous lives and had no reason to 'know' evil (the absence of good).
The Creator of all things also created the spirit realm before creating earth that contains angelic beings who also had free will. And some of them rebelled and were cast out. Their leader, previously named Lucifer and now called satan deceived Eve into thinking that knowing evil would make her more like God who daily walked and talked to them in the garden. Adam followed her and now knew evil in his spirit because it had died to the goodness of God.
BUT GOD.....already had a plan! He wasn't surprised because even a third of the angels who were around the throne in Heaven rebelled but they were not made in His likeness and image - they weren't His children. His plan was to redeem/pay for their evil actions and that's called GRACE and reward those believed in God's gracious love through faith and that not of ourselves but it is a gift lest any man should boast with eternal life.
And how did He accomplish that? He vicariously became a human through His Son Jesus who was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit. Jesus went about teaching how to be behave righteously, healed the sick, raised the dead, was crucified to pay the penalty(redeem) all of humanity for all evil ever committed - past, present AND future. He rose from the dead to prove that eternal life was granted to all those who believe.

But to those who won't believe the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [i]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [j]men, leaving the natural use of the [k]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
So back to the thread topic - Is anyone 'grandfathered' into being a righteous human being? I was born by parents who were sinners, who were born of parents who were sinners, etc, etc, all the way back to Adam & Eve. We all received their DNA of body, soul, & a spirit separated from God's Holy Spirt (the part that died when they ate the fruit) Or do we all have to admit that there are things we have done that we are not proud of (sin) and no matter how many right things we do it is never full payment/restitution to our Creator? Does every person who is without excuse of a Creator need to receive the free gift of Grace through faith?
It is not me trying to change myself into being a righteous person. It is me EXCHANGING my life for HIS life by my spirit being born again of His spirit that comes inside of me to live out His life & will through me. And that is the Good News - all my sins (past, present, & future) are forgiven because of the redemption power of Jesus shedding His blood on the cross for without the shedding of blood their is no forgiveness of sin.
 
Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Hi James.

That was an interesting treatise on a Christian belief of creation and sin, damnation and salvation.

But, it doesn't really have much to do with my posts, which leads me to believe that you don't understand what I have been tying to convey.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [praizeop2] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
<<So in the meantime, I will ask you not to respond to posts written on Scripture until you have read where they come from. You have had more than your share of love and allowances here. Feel free to post in the Atheist Debates forums. http://www.praize.com/...Atheist_Debate_F137/ >>

Sarah, I missed this.

Did you really just redirect me to Atheist Debate? Nice.

My share of love and allowances?

I am attempting to explain myself and my thoughts about the attitude that some Christians believe is supported by certain verses in the Bible, in this case, those presented by the Original Poster.

It saddens me greatly when any person denigrates themselves to the point where they deny any self worth and I reason that holding up more and more supposed evidence of this, as found in scripture, to be detrimental to the condition of a person's psyche...or soul, if that is believed.

If you are unaware of children who live in this state of being held up as wicked sinners, then you have led a sheltered life. All is not rosy just because Christians also cite a loving God and a father/husband who is its representative in the family.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [jeanne53] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Greetings,
The many Christians that continue to believe that they are "sinners saved by grace" have cast dispersion upon the Savior of the world's sacrifice. For greater love has no man than this then to lay his life down for his friends & herein I (Jesus) call you my friends.
The truth is that if anyone is IN Christ, they are a new creation - a joint heir to everything of God's. The old person (a sinner) passed away. Behold the new (born-again believer) has come (into his inheritance). 2nd Corinthians 5:17.
But there is more to the truth. Not only is a believer in God's promise in the most well-known Bible verse - John 3:16 actually IN Christ but Christ is also IN the believer.
This truth is too unbelievable by not only non-Christians, but also by most of those who call themselves Christians. It is why the whole world is not completely Christian.
So it is Christ in ME the hope of glory and it is ME in Christ allowing Him to live His life out through my body. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) So faith has both substance & evidence - two quantifiable objects that actually dwell in those who believe that Christ is actually in them and they are actually like me crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
That is what the Apostle Paul calls the mystery - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory" 1st Timothy 3:16.
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not [d]imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2nd Corinthians 18-21
So today is the day of salvation to have the Creator indwell you with His Love & Righteousness
 
Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
jamesgodson: Hi

I have a question for you.

Can 'born sinners', in your opinion, be "Holy", before hearing, understanding and living 'The Gospel'?
.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to


This questions can best be answered by a question (or Two)
Can 'born sinners', in your opinion, be "Holy", before hearing, understanding and living 'The Gospel'?


Does 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (previously quoted) suggest that by God reconciling all the sins ever committed that all humans will be in heaven and that only the devil & his demons will be in hell? That then leads to the next question in Romans 8:29 - "For whom He fore knew He did also predestinate to be conformed into the image of his Son" - has He chosen/elected some or all to become joint heirs with Jesus?


 
Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
jamesgodson: Hi

Can 'born sinners', in your opinion, be "Holy", before hearing, understanding and living 'The Gospel'?
What does scripture say concerning the infants of a believer?

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." 1 Cor.7:14.

If you say "No they can't" you need to explain to me what you think this Apostolic statement means. I take it for what it says. The children of a believer are 'Holy', the children of unbelieving couples are 'unclean'.

Do you see a different possible interpretation?

Does 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (previously quoted) suggest that by God reconciling all the sins ever committed that all humans will be in heaven and that only the devil & his demons will be in hell?

All sins are no longer held against the world, because God is reconciled with sinners, but not all sinners are yet reconciled with God, that means they are still holding God to account, which is foolhardy in the extreme, considering who and what God is.

God has entrusted 'the message of reconciliation' to us who have, out of gratitude reconciled ourselves with God. "So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us"; we therefore entreat 'sinners', like ourselves, on behalf of Christ, to "be reconciled to God". As we have done, since we believe God is reconciled to us, through the atonement of Christ. 2 Cor.5:19-21.

That then leads to the next question in Romans 8:29 - "For whom He fore knew He did also predestinate to be conformed into the image of his Son" - has He chosen/elected some or all to become joint heirs with Jesus?

" . . we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." Rom.8:23-30.


There a number of things worth noting in the passage you cited in your second question, two of which are these.

(1) Nobody knows if they have been chosen of God to be 'saved'. More importantly, and even more so, nobody knows whether someone else is 'saved'. It is God who chooses, God who foreknows, God who predestines, God who calls, God who justifies, God who glorifies. He did not consult us, does not consult us and will not consult us. And God does not inform us of the extent or number of those He has decided to 'save', except to say God wants a LARGE family along with His firstborn.

(2) The only reason anyone is 'saved', was because God had a purpose for them. We are called "according to His purpose".

If God's purpose were to 'save' the entire world, who are we to argue with Him about it?
If God's purpose were to 'save' only some of it, who are we to argue with Him about it?
If God's purpose were to 'save' none of the world, we would already all know about it.

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jn.12:47.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Jn.1:29.
.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Feb 1, 2019, 9:00 AM
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Hi Chris.

You remain ever interesting and ever more interesting. And..that is a good thing, my friend. Smile

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Greetings ALL,

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." 1 Cor.7:14.

If you say "No they can't" you need to explain to me what you think this Apostolic statement means. I take it for what it says. The children of a believer are 'Holy', the children of unbelieving couples are 'unclean'.

Do you see a different possible interpretation?


Holy & unclean - probable some definitions needed. Holy is often translated as set apart and unclean would mean they were flawed in some form but not irreparably harmed.
In my personal experience - I was born of both unbelieving parents, who were born on both the paternal & maternal sides to unclean parents. Therefore I was born unclean. I have no further ancestral knowledge than my mother's grandmother's obituary that said that 'no one had ever heard her speak a disparaging word' .
I am unable to find where God has any 'grandchildren' in the Bible and that leads me to believe the 'Roman Road' - 'All have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, if you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Every place 'ALL' is translated in the Bible it always means ALL. Even if a child born of 'Holy' parents still falls in the category of ALL have sinned - and ALL need a savior. Everyone in every religion or atheist are believing that somehow they won't be held accountable for ALL the things they have done of which they are not proud.

My previous question:


Does 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (previously quoted) suggest that by God reconciling all the sins ever committed that all humans will be in heaven and that only the devil & his demons will be in hell?

All sins are no longer held against the world, because God is reconciled with sinners, but not all sinners are yet reconciled with God, that means they are still holding God to account, which is foolhardy in the extreme, considering who and what God is.

God has entrusted 'the message of reconciliation' to us who have, out of gratitude reconciled ourselves with God.

So is it out of our gratitude (love) that we reconciled ourselves to God? OR is it because He first loved us and by His GRACE (unmerited favor) we have been saved through faith and that not of ourselves but it is a gift of God


"So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us"; we therefore entreat 'sinners', like ourselves, on behalf of Christ, to "be reconciled to God". As we have done, since we believe God is reconciled to us, through the atonement of Christ. 2 Cor.5:19-21.
Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ? Really the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' of did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

And that led to my next question in Romans 8:29 - "For whom He fore knew He did also predestinate to be conformed into the image of his Son" - has He chosen/elected some or all to become joint heirs with Jesus?

" . . we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. So we are saints & no longer sinners!

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." Rom.8:23-30.


There a number of things worth noting in the passage you cited in your second question, two of which are these.

(1) Nobody knows if they have been chosen of God to be 'saved'. More importantly, and even more so, nobody knows whether someone else is 'saved'. It is God who chooses, God who foreknows, God who predestines, God who calls, God who justifies, God who glorifies. He did not consult us, does not consult us and will not consult us. And God does not inform us of the extent or number of those He has decided to 'save', except to say God wants a LARGE family along with His firstborn. But doesn't the Bible say 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' (salvation) Or are you saying that the Bible says 'if it be His will' that some might be saved, some might be healed, some might prosper? Or is he no respecter of persons and what He has done for other He will do for me?


So if I am understanding your opinion, I can't know if I am saved after believing in my heart that Jesus is LORD and confessing with my mouth that God raised Him from the dead? Romans 10:9-10
I am being conformed into the image of His son so that God has a LARGE family, but is that where holy children born of holy parents would be considered nephews & nieces to Jesus and grandchildren to God?

(2) The only reason anyone is 'saved', was because God had a purpose for them. We are called "according to His purpose".

If God's purpose were to 'save' the entire world, who are we to argue with Him about it?
If God's purpose were to 'save' only some of it, who are we to argue with Him about it?
If God's purpose were to 'save' none of the world, we would already all know about it.

Both Abraham & Moses 'argued' with God! Abraham pleaded for Sodom and Moses begged God not to destroy the Israelites in the wilderness.
So God's purpose for His children is to Love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul & strength and love our neighbor as ourselves and do even greater works then He (Jesus) did by going into all the world, and preaching the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So no matter whether we were born holy or unclean everyone who believes shall be saved

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jn.12:47.
So we don't have to 'argue' with Him about it - He has revealed it through the promise to Abraham that the whole world would be blessed (saved) through him. And what could we receive more than having the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead to dwell inside of us and make alive our mortal bodies as we wait for our immortal bodies to live eternally in His kingdom as joint heirs with Christ.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Jn.1:29.

So reverting back to the thread*s intentions: Were you, Chris, born 'Holy' or 'unclean' like me? And if holy then why did you need to be reconciled to God? Oh, I almost forgot that you said that it was out of your gratitude for Him reconciling you to Himself through Christ's atonement. Being born unclean, I am thankful that it was not by my works of righteousness which I have done but it was according to His mercy He saved me by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5
Choose you this day whom you will serve, for it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement.
For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but will have everlasting life.
.

Last edited by:

praizeop2: Feb 2, 2019, 6:30 PM
 
Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
jamesgodson: Hi

Q. Holy & unclean - probable some definitions needed. Holy is often translated as set apart and unclean would mean they were flawed in some form but not irreparably harmed.
In my personal experience - I was born of both unbelieving parents, who were born on both the paternal & maternal sides to unclean parents. Therefore I was born unclean. I have no further ancestral knowledge than my mother's grandmother's obituary that said that 'no one had ever heard her speak a disparaging word'.

I am being conformed into the image of His son so that God has a LARGE family, but is that where holy children born of holy parents would be considered nephews & nieces to Jesus and grandchildren to God?


A. A couple of comments from me here James, but first let me congratulate you on a first class reply to my previous post. It looks as if our conversation may prove very productive and enlightening, rather than a battle of wills and wits, like so many internet 'debates' seem to degenerate into. This is more like the 'olden days' of Praize.

"Holy" = Set apart, (often, for use by God), absolutely correct.
"Unclean" = not to be used, eaten, associated with etc. (not necessarily either 'sinful' or 'damned'). Infants don't start out 'sinful' they are incapable of sin, along with most other things at birth. They will inevitably grow up to become sinners though, we all do. That is why Paul can honestly say "All have sinned" because he is writing only to adults who have already grown up and can read or hear his words, not to new born infants who can't yet read nor understand. (Let's be logical about it).

So 1 Cor.7:14 is not saying that the children of believers are 'saved' and the children of unbelievers are 'damned'. It is saying that the children of believers are 'set apart', which the children of unbelievers, (as far as we know), are not, until they become believing, and therefore fit for service to God.

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus." Gal.1:15-17.

Paul's life history interestingly illustrates the way in which God operates in the children of the faithful. Though 'Set Apart by God' from his conception in the womb, it was not until his Damascus Road experience that he was 'Called by God's Grace' and 'Christ was revealed in him', for the express purpose of 'Preaching Christ among the Gentiles'. Paul's view of the process by which he came to be 'saved' only culminated in 'baptism', it was not in his estimation 'initiated' by it. Neither do we believe 'baptism' initiates the process in the infants of believers. It merely affirms the fact that God has 'set them apart' and like Paul, will be used by God to fulfill God's purpose for them.

"The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work"
. 2 Tim 2:19-21.

It is highly likely that your election in God's Grace is linked to your mothers grandmother's faith. This is however a 'secret of The Lord' and not something God want's all and sundry to know.

We are commissioned and 'entrusted' by God to tell of The Gospel, which is the message of reconciliation, to all who will hear us. Then leave the issue of 'election' entirely to God.

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut.29:29

"The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him;
and he will shew them his covenant."
Ps.25:14.

"But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him,
and his righteousness unto children's children;
To such as keep his covenant,
and to those that remember his commandments to do them."
Ps103:17-18.

"The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation".

It is not at all unreasonable to assume that since God has proclaimed His intention that the transgressions of the parents will be repeated by their children's children through to the third and fourth generation, then God's Gracious Mercy and his Covenant promise to Abraham and his yet to be conceived son Isaac, will be extended to at least the third and fourth generation of those that love God and keep covenant with Him.

"Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the Lord, and with your children's children will I plead." Jer.2:9.

It would seem that the Lord 'pleaded' with you to keep the covenant you inherited perhaps from your mother's grandmother. In my own case it was almost certainly my grandmother. I still have her family bible. So by placing your faith in Jesus Christ and submitting to the yoke of his discipline and discipleship you have become, along with your own children, set apart and "Holy to the Lord".

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,

“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again,
“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham
. Heb.2:10-16.

Q. So is it out of our gratitude (love) that we reconciled ourselves to God? OR is it because He first loved us and by His GRACE (unmerited favor) we have been saved through faith and that not of ourselves but it is a gift of God?

A. Since salvation is 'a gift of God' then obviously we can do nothing to 'earn' it. We 'earn' wages and the wages of sin is death.

All you can do with a gift is either 'receive' it or 'reject it'. There is no question of anyone 'deserving' it, but without LOVE we cannot profit from God's 'gift' of salvation.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing". 1 Cor.13:2-3.

Q. Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ? Really the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' of did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

A. As I conjectured, it might be that you were not in fact born 'unclean', because of the faith of your mother's mother, perhaps. In any case though it matters not a jot because God has entrusted the 'message of reconciliation' to his servants to bring 'unclean' and 'clean' ALL into the 'net' of The Kingdom. Then the sorting will begin, but it will be the angels which do the job, not us. Matt.13:47-52.

Your salvation dates from the foundation of the world, (if you have an assurance of that fact then you are blessed).

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Most people think their salvation dates from when they 'gave themselves to Jesus' or some such similar nonsense. As if we can excuse ourselves, up until we gave in and finally accepted it, from our rejection of God's free and full salvation, won for us all by Christ, and graciously provided for us sinners, from the foundation of the world.

Q. But doesn't the Bible say

'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' (salvation)

Or are you saying that the Bible says

'if it be His will' that some might be saved, some might be healed, some might prosper? Or is he no respecter of persons and what He has done for other He will do for me?


So if I am understanding your opinion, I can't know if I am saved after believing in my heart that Jesus is LORD and confessing with my mouth that God raised Him from the dead? Romans 10:9-10


I am being conformed into the image of His son so that God has a LARGE family, but is that where holy children born of holy parents would be considered nephews & nieces to Jesus and grandchildren to God?

A. Of course you can't know. You can only have faith, without which you cannot please God. Heb.11:6. If you are blessed with an 'assurance of salvation' that is even better, but you still don't know. The only time you will know, is when you hear the words of our Lord saying:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matt.25:21 and 23.

Only then will you know as you are known. 1 Cor.13:12.

Q? Both Abraham & Moses 'argued' with God! Abraham pleaded for Sodom and Moses begged God not to destroy the Israelites in the wilderness.

So God's purpose for His children is to Love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul & strength and love our neighbor as ourselves and do even greater works then He (Jesus) did by going into all the world, and preaching the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So no matter whether we were born holy or unclean everyone who believes shall be saved.

It seems this was a statement rather than a question. I don't disagree with it though, and it does not seem to need an answer.

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.

So we don't have to 'argue' with Him about it - He has revealed it through the promise to Abraham that the whole world would be blessed (saved) through him. And what could we receive more than having the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead to dwell inside of us and make alive our mortal bodies as we wait for our immortal bodies to live eternally in His kingdom as joint heirs with Christ.

Also not a question, but a statement I am in agreement with.

Q. So reverting back to the thread's intentions: Were you, Chris, born 'Holy' or 'unclean' like me? And if holy then why did you need to be reconciled to God? Oh, I almost forgot that you said that it was out of your gratitude for Him reconciling you to Himself through Christ's atonement. Being born unclean, I am thankful that it was not by my works of righteousness which I have done but it was according to His mercy He saved me by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5

Choose you this day whom you will serve, for it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement.

For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but will have everlasting life.

A. I believe now that I was born "Holy" to God, but certainly became 'unclean' through trespasses and sin, just as every other human infant, except Jesus Christ, has done. From the womb however God has preordained that I should serve His purpose, and that He has never broken Covenant with me, for the sake of the covenant betwixt one of my forefathers or foremothers, because God never breaks his promises. I unfortunately was a 'hard fish to catch', but God nevertheless contrived to get me into his net. I am now very grateful to Him for that, even though the experience at the time was rather uncomfortable and until I was safely in the net, I was certainly not cooperating with my redeemer, and in the process damaging myself and others and frustrating God's purposes planned for me.

Every 'Unclean' or 'Holy', sinner who finally submits and avails themselves of God's free gift of salvation, has only God to thank for it. God works in a mysterious way his wonders to perform.
.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Feb 3, 2019, 8:11 AM
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Greetings Chris,
I am Thankful that we can extend our growth together across-the -pond.

MY Previous Question:.

Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ? Really the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' of did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

A. As I conjectured, it might be that you were not in fact born 'unclean', because of the faith of your mother's mother, perhaps. In any case though it matters not a jot because God has entrusted the 'message of reconciliation' to his servants to bring 'unclean' and 'clean' ALL into the 'net' of The Kingdom. then the sorting will begin, but it will be the angels which do the job, not us. Matt.13:47-52.

I
am unable surmise that the ones who have received the righteousness of God and the mind of Christ would have any fear, as Jeanne would suggest,of not knowing their fate in the harvest. And since it will be a harvest of the dead & the living, how would a parent or a child know if he/they were born holy or born unclean?

Your salvation dates from the foundation of the world, (if you have an assurance of that fact then you are blessed).

So does everyone's salvation date from the foundation of the world making everyone 'saved' and that dates back to my original post to which you replied that only can God can know and we can't argue with Him.

But I can know by my previous quote that the same Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in me and makes alive my mortal body! and I do have the assurance of salvation due to the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man (including me!) to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 but all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


"That their hearts might be comforted being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Your quote of Col 2:2-3 above further confirms my assurance that I am a blessed child of God.


Most people think their salvation dates from when they 'gave themselves to Jesus' or some such similar nonsense. As if we can excuse ourselves, up until we gave in and finally accepted it, from our rejection of God's free and full salvation, won for us all by Christ, and graciously provided for us sinners, from the foundation of the world.
So all are "saved" due to God reconciling the whole world to Himself, but some who don't 'reconcile' themselves to God through their gratitude towards his forgiveness are "unsaved"/lost and nobody can tell who is who until the day of the harvest? Is this the doctrine of the Church of England which is much like the Baptist or back in the 1600's - Anabaptists? And farther back to John Calvin? Then I understand why you answered my question
that 'I can't know if I am saved after believing in my heart that Jesus is LORD and confessing with my mouth that God raised Him from the dead?' Romans 10:9-10

A. Of course you can't know. You can only have faith, without which you cannot please God. Heb.11:6. If you are blessed with an 'assurance of salvation' that is even better, but you still don't know. The only time you will know, is when you hear the words of our Lord saying:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matt.25:21 and 23.

Only then will you know as you are known. 1 Cor.13:12.

You further state:

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.
It is Christ who stands at the door knocking to be let into your house/body to live inside you to show the world the signs, wonders & miracles ONLY He can do through His children. So I am not sure why you imagine yourself as a nuisance and trying to work hard to find out what went wrong - we are all sinners in need of a savior - and trying to find a way to fix IT. Jesus already fixed IT - the sins of the world. God made everything else and He said it was GOOD. Even Jesus went about doing GOOD - what He saw his Father doing and saying what His father said.

A. I believe now that I was born "Holy" to God, but certainly became 'unclean' through trespasses and sin, just as every other human infant, except Jesus Christ, has done. From the womb however God has preordained that I should serve His purpose, and that He has never broken Covenant with me, for the sake of the covenant betwixt one of my forefathers or foremothers, because God never breaks his promises. I unfortunately was a 'hard fish to catch', but God nevertheless contrived to get me into his net. I am now very grateful to Him for that, even though the experience at the time was rather uncomfortable and until I was safely in the net, I was certainly not cooperating with my redeemer, and in the process damaging myself and others and frustrating God's purposes planned for me.

Are you safely in the 'net' or might you be winnowed out since you claim that no one can know until the day of reckoning/judgement day? or do you know that it is Christ in you the hope of Glory and that just as the disciples experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit, you too are filled with the Holy spirit so that out of your innermost being will flow rivers of living water and that the life you now live in the flesh you live by the faith OF the Son of Man (JESUS) who loves you and gave Himself (died) for you?
Because if you don't have that assurance, your 'faith' is no better than Jeanne's atheism. Instead of being confident in hearing 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant/steward of God's talents entrusted to you, you don't know if you will hear - "Depart from me, I never knew you" as you try and explain all the hard work of trying to find out what went wrong and trying to play God by trying to fix IT.

As an old country boy once told me, "you're either a saint or you ain't"
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Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
jamesgodson: Hi

MY Previous Question:. Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ?

That would be when you received 'circumcision' of the heart. Rom.2:29. The indwelling of The Holy Spirit. The 'renewal' in the Holy Spirit. Tit.3:5, Rom.12:2. Same applies to "Holy" infants baptized in the 'Promise' that that would eventually be their experience, as God calls them into His service as ministers of the 'message of reconciliation'. God does not 'entrust' 'unclean' persons with that message. Only those who are themselves reconciled with God can understand it or convince others of its content.

Quote:
From Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: - They [Apostles & Believers] ought to know if Christ Jesus was in them, by the influences, graces, and indwelling of his Spirit, by his kingdom set up in their hearts. Let us question our own souls; either we are true Christians, or we are deceivers. Unless Christ be in us by his Spirit, and power of his love, our faith is dead, and we are yet disapproved by our Judge.


Really the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' or did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

There is a possible misunderstanding concerning the notion that 'a new creation' means you have become a 'different, now living, person' from the 'now dead, previous sinner'. We are all still 'sinners' because ALL have sinned, and still do. Our 'Righteousness' is merely imputed and is Christ's alone. The difference is that we 'understand things differently after the Holy Spirit indwells us'. Everything is become for us a new creation. Everything is re-evaluated. We see our selves differently, we see Christ differently, we see God differently, we see our natural disposition and inclination to sin, differently. Rom.7:24-25.

"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, HE is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

HE :

HE
does not appear in the Greek original of the text of 2 Cor.5:17. It says literally in English:

Therefore if anyone [is] in Christ [he is, there is, it is] a new creation the old things have passed away behold has come into being [the] new.

The words shown in brackets are not in the original Greek of the scriptures.

There is the option in Greek of it being any of the possibilities shown in brackets. i.e

[He] is a new creation.
[It] is a new creation.
[There] is a new creation.

All three do not actually appear in the Greek. The translators of our Bibles have to guess which is most probably what Paul intended to say.

I prefer [there is a new creation], meaning that when we receive the Holy Spirit internally, within our soul, (the being originally created by God in his image that was good, Gen.1:31, our spirit), we are, (at last), enabled by The Holy Spirit, to see EVERYTHING, (the entire creation), differently. We view our own sin differently, Rom.7:24-25, we view Christ as (Lord and Savior), differently 2 Cor.5:16. we view God differently, Rom.8:15. John 16:8.

We are 'saints' by virtue only of our 'renewal in the Holy Spirit', and that is ALL of God and none of our own doing. We go on from there to be 'Sanctified' and that requires our cooperation with God.

I am unable surmise that the ones who have received the righteousness of God and the mind of Christ would have any fear, as Jeanne would suggest,of not knowing their fate in the harvest. And since it will be a harvest of the dead & the living, how would a parent or a child know if he/they were born holy or born unclean?

A parent believes by the testimony of The Holy Spirit within them, and that by faith alone. They believe God's promise in scripture and experience it in the indwelling of The Holy Spirit in their life.

I know that two and two add up to four, there is nothing I can do to change that, but I 'believe' that I have received the spirit of adoption, whereby I cry, Abba, Father. Rom.8:15.

That is the difference between what we know to be true, and what we believe to be true. That is the power of faith.

"That their hearts might be comforted being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Your quote of Col 2:2-3 above further confirms my assurance that I am a blessed child of God.


Indeed it does! An assurance though is not a 'fact'. It is a reliable promise. A reliable promise from God, who's promises are reliable by definition. 2 Cor.1:22, 5:5; Eph.1:14. An 'earnest' is a down-payment or promissory note.

If I assure you that I owe you £10.00 you may have an assurance that you will receive £10.00 from me sometime, but you have not got your £10.00 yet, and neither will you ever get it if I prove untrustworthy.

An assurance of salvation is only as good as The Word of God. Fortunately, by faith, we believe that God keeps His Word. That is why we can baptise our infants.

So all are "saved" due to God reconciling the whole world to Himself, but some who don't 'reconcile' themselves to God through their gratitude towards his forgiveness are "unsaved"/lost and nobody can tell who is who until the day of the harvest? Is this the doctrine of the Church of England which is much like the Baptist or back in the 1600's - Anabaptists? And farther back to John Calvin? Then I understand why you answered my question that 'I can't know if I am saved after believing in my heart that Jesus is LORD and confessing with my mouth that God raised Him from the dead?' Romans 10:9-10.

You can't know, you can only believe.

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Jesus was The Word of God. Jn.1:1.
Jesus said: "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jn.12:47.
God said: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa.55:11.
Jesus said: "all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." Jn.5:23.
Jesus said: "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" Lk.12:50.

What was accomplished?
What was that 'baptism'?
What was Christ's mission on earth, which he, 'The Word of God' was sent forth to accomplish, and would not return to God without prospering in the thing whereto God had sent it?

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Jn.19:30.


STRONG’S NUMBER: g5055
Dictionary Definition g5055. (unfortunately Praize can't cope here with the actual Greek word); teleo; from 5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): — accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
AV (26) - finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, misc 3;
to bring to a close, to finish.

So Jesus came to save the world, not to judge it.
And: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, no longer holding their sins against them.

BUT: He that rejects Jesus, and receives not his words, has one that will judge them: the word that Jesus has spoken, the same shall judge them in the last day. Jn.12:48.

So even though everyone in the world is 'saved' by Christ, and God no longer holds their sins against them, they will still be held accountable for rejecting the 'message of reconciliation' and refusing themselves to be reconciled with God, whenever they heard it preached 'in the power of the Holy Spirit'. They will be judged by the words they have refused to hear and condemn themselves 'out of their own mouths'. Lk.19:22.

Not hearing, is not however the same as refusing to listen and heed. All those who have never heard Christ's words nor rejected him, are 'saved', because God no longer holds their sins against them until they refuse to hear 'the message of reconciliation'.

This is why the gospel is a "Two Edged Sword". Heb.4:12. Rev.1:16, 2:12. Because it cuts both ways.

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.

It is Christ who stands at the door knocking to be let into your house/body to live inside you to show the world the signs, wonders & miracles ONLY He can do through His children. So I am not sure why you imagine yourself as a nuisance and trying to work hard to find out what went wrong - we are all sinners in need of a savior - and trying to find a way to fix IT. Jesus already fixed IT - the sins of the world. God made everything else and He said it was GOOD. Even Jesus went about doing GOOD - what He saw his Father doing and saying what His father said.

I was not referring to our relationship with Christ or to becoming a believer. I was referring to our task 'in the world' as redeemed disciples of Christ. Finding out what causes things to go wrong, includes such things as finding a cure for cancer, blindness, plague and pestilence. Designing safe housing in earthquake zones. Discovering better ways of using the planet's resources, to the benefit of everyone, not just the few. In other words "Doing greater and more numerous things than He, in his limited 32 years time on earth was able to do while "Going about doing good". Acts.10:38.

Jesus didn't save us just for us to become all religious and preachy. He has saved us to bring the whole human race into fuller understanding of THE TRUTH. The whole truth about everything. And that shall "Set us Free" from all the misery that encumbers us, the whole human race.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb.12:1-13.

We should ask ourselves, "Am I going about doing Good" as Jesus did. We don't need to perform miracles, we just need to apply ourselves to problem solving the way he did.

"Are you safely in the 'net' or might you be winnowed out since you claim that no one can know until the day of reckoning/judgement day? or do you know that it is Christ in you the hope of Glory and that just as the disciples experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit, you too are filled with the Holy spirit so that out of your innermost being will flow rivers of living water and that the life you now live in the flesh you live by the faith OF the Son of Man (JESUS) who loves you and gave Himself (died) for you?

Because if you don't have that assurance, your 'faith' is no better than Jeanne's atheism. Instead of being confident in hearing 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant/steward of God's talents entrusted to you, you don't know if you will hear - "Depart from me, I never knew you" as you try and explain all the hard work of trying to find out what went wrong and trying to play God by trying to fix IT.

As an old country boy once told me, "you're either a saint or you ain't"


To be fair to you, most of what you wrote here was based upon a misunderstanding of what I had written regarding using Jesus and prayer as an excuse for not trying to find solutions to the world's problems by using the brains God has given us.

I am quite 'safely in the net', thank you, and have in all probability, at 73 years old, had assurance to that effect rather longer than you may have yourself.

It is The Holy Spirit who gives us that assurance, but knowing is what God does, we rely on faith. which means relying on God.

My life is hid with Christ in God. Col.3:3.

For all you know, you may be going to hear "Depart from me, I never knew you". As a friend and brother I sincerely hope you never do. We cannot ever rule out the possibility though, because it depends on our state of 'Sanctification' not on our own perhaps imagined 'assurance'. That is why the warning is there in the scripture, it is not intended for unbelievers you know. Clearly these 'servants' were sufficiently 'unsanctified' to deserve the admonishing, but did not consider themselves undeserving even of congratulation from their Lord.

Do you suppose any of the 'servants' who may be hearing these discomforting words will be expecting to hear them? I don't think so! I think they will be very unpleasantly surprised.

I also think quite a few who hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant", will be quite astonished that Jesus would address them in such a fashion. Don't you?

Being a 'saint' is nothing to be proud of. Pride has been the downfall of many a would be 'saint'. In fact it was pride that got a certain 'Angel of Light' cast out of heaven.


In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Feb 4, 2019, 2:52 PM
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Greetings


Your answer to my " Previous Question:. Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ?"

That would be when you received 'circumcision' of the heart. Rom.2:29. The indwelling of The Holy Spirit. The 'renewal' in the Holy Spirit. Tit.3:5, Rom.12:2. Same applies to "Holy" infants baptized in the 'Promise' that that would eventually be their experience, as God calls them into His service as ministers of the 'message of reconciliation'. God does not 'entrust' 'unclean' persons with that message. Only those who are themselves reconciled with God can understand it or convince others of its content.

Quote:
From Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: - They [Apostles & Believers] ought to know if Christ Jesus was in them, by the influences, graces, and indwelling of his Spirit, by his kingdom set up in their hearts. Let us question our own souls; either we are true Christians, or we are deceivers. Unless Christ be in us by his Spirit, and power of his love, our faith is dead, and we are yet disapproved by our Judge.


Leads me back to my original post of there being a misconception of the Gospel. In your above answer the words "indwelling" & "know" are used. We know that demonic spirits can possess or 'indwell' a human host so maybe it is my too literal interpretation that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an actuality. He - the third person of the Trinity resides in my spirit. Mr. Henry uses the term ought to 'know if Christ Jesus - God the Son - lives in them. the teensy bit of Hebrew I've been taught that when a man & woman were married and consummated it and became one flesh the term translated that 'He knew' his wife. (The adulterous just 'lay' with her)

So I asked the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' or did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

And your answer was


There is a possible misunderstanding concerning the notion that 'a new creation' means you have become a 'different, now living, person' from the 'now dead, previous sinner'. We are all still 'sinners' because ALL have sinned, and still do. Our 'Righteousness' is merely imputed and is Christ's alone. The difference is that we 'understand things differently after the Holy Spirit indwells us'. Everything is become for us a new creation. Everything is re-evaluated. We see our selves differently, we see Christ differently, we see God differently, we see our natural disposition and inclination to sin, differently. Rom.7:24-25.


"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, HE is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

HE :

HE
does not appear in the Greek original of the text of 2 Cor.5:17. It says literally in English:

Therefore if anyone [is] in Christ [he is, there is, it is] a new creation the old things have passed away behold has come into being [the] new.

The words shown in brackets are not in the original Greek of the scriptures.

There is the option in Greek of it being any of the possibilities shown in brackets. i.e

[He] is a new creation.
[It] is a new creation.
[There] is a new creation.

All three do not actually appear in the Greek. The translators of our Bibles have to guess which is most probably what Paul intended to say.


I prefer [there is a new creation], meaning that when we receive the Holy Spirit internally, within our soul, (the being originally created by God in his image that was good, Gen.1:31, our spirit), we are, (at last), enabled by The Holy Spirit, to see EVERYTHING, (the entire creation), differently. We view our own sin differently, Rom.7:24-25, we view Christ as (Lord and Savior), differently 2 Cor.5:16. we view God differently, Rom.8:15. John 16:8.

We are 'saints' by virtue only of our 'renewal in the Holy Spirit', and that is ALL of God and none of our own doing. We go on from there to be 'Sanctified' and that requires our cooperation with God.


So since we both have experienced the renewal in the Holy Spirit, then we are in agreement that we are saints - who sometimes miss the mark (sin)

A parent believes by the testimony of The Holy Spirit within them, and that by faith alone. They believe God's promise in scripture and experience it in the indwelling of The Holy Spirit in their life.

I know that two and two add up to four, there is nothing I can do to change that, but I 'believe' that I have received the spirit of adoption, whereby I cry, Abba, Father. Rom.8:15.

That is the difference between what we know to be true, and what we believe to be true. That is the power of faith.


And that returns us to what I call a misconception of the Gospel. We ARE indwelt with the Spirit of God which makes us a new creation because the old me passed away (died) when I was crucified with Christ & continue to present myself a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"That their hearts might be comforted being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Your quote of Col 2:2-3 above further confirms my assurance that I am a blessed child of God for God can not lie. He gave us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the earnest deposit of His promise of everlasting life.

You can't know, you can only believe.

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

And we believe by Faith and faith has quantifiable substance and actual evidence that Jesus did - signs, wonders & miracles

Jesus was The Word of God. Jn.1:1.
Jesus said: "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jn.12:47.
God said: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa.55:11.
Jesus said: "all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." Jn.5:23.
Jesus said: "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" Lk.12:50.

What was accomplished? The NEW Covenant that it is not by keeping the law but by receiving the gift of eternal life
What was that 'baptism'? Jesus' death on the cross for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin
What was Christ's mission on earth, which he, 'The Word of God' was sent forth to accomplish, and would not return to God without prospering in the thing whereto God had sent it? That He would be the sacrificial lamb that would take away the sins of the world

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Jn.19:30.


STRONG’S NUMBER: g5055
Dictionary Definition g5055. (unfortunately Praize can't cope here with the actual Greek word); teleo; from 5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): — accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
AV (26) - finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, misc 3;
to bring to a close, to finish.

So Jesus came to save the world, not to judge it.
And: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, no longer holding their sins against them.

BUT: He that rejects Jesus, and receives not his words, has one that will judge them: the word that Jesus has spoken, the same shall judge them in the last day. Jn.12:48.

So even though everyone in the world is 'saved' by Christ, and God no longer holds their sins against them, they will still be held accountable for rejecting the 'message of reconciliation' and refusing themselves to be reconciled with God, whenever they heard it preached 'in the power of the Holy Spirit'. They will be judged by the words they have refused to hear and condemn themselves 'out of their own mouths'. Lk.19:22.


Not hearing, is not however the same as refusing to listen and heed. All those who have never heard Christ's words nor rejected him, are 'saved', because God no longer holds their sins against them until they refuse to hear 'the message of reconciliation'.





This might just be semantics or a different 'flavor', but what are the new-born & those who have never heard actually saved from since according to Romans 1:18-20 - ALL have heard and they are without excuse and verse 21 continues showing their refusal to honor God.?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is why the gospel is a "Two Edged Sword". Heb.4:12. Rev.1:16, 2:12. Because it cuts both ways.

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.

It is Christ who stands at the door knocking to be let into your house/body to live inside you to show the world the signs, wonders & miracles ONLY He can do through His children. So I am not sure why you imagine yourself as a nuisance and trying to work hard to find out what went wrong - we are all sinners in need of a savior - and trying to find a way to fix IT. Jesus already fixed IT - the sins of the world. God made everything else and He said it was GOOD. Even Jesus went about doing GOOD - what He saw his Father doing and saying what His father said.

I was not referring to our relationship with Christ or to becoming a believer. I was referring to our task 'in the world' as redeemed disciples of Christ. Finding out what causes things to go wrong, includes such things as finding a cure for cancer, blindness, plague and pestilence. Designing safe housing in earthquake zones. Discovering better ways of using the planet's resources, to the benefit of everyone, not just the few. In other words "Doing greater and more numerous things than He, in his limited 32 years time on earth was able to do while "Going about doing good". Acts.10:38.

Jesus didn't save us just for us to become all religious and preachy. He has saved us to bring the whole human race into fuller understanding of THE TRUTH. The whole truth about everything. And that shall "Set us Free" from all the misery that encumbers us, the whole human race.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb.12:1-13.

We should ask ourselves, "Am I going about doing Good" as Jesus did. We don't need to perform miracles, we just need to apply ourselves to problem solving the way he did.

Jesus 'solved the problem' by healing the sick, making the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, the dead to live, cast out demons all by the power of God. He tried to teach the twelve how to do the signs, wonders & miracles that he did. He even tried teaching them how to feed the 5000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves in a youngster's lunch (probably 2 sardines & 5 crackers) & they responded it would take a year's salary to go buy that much food. He even taught them how to calm a storm & that if they (we) gave it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
He then Commissioned them to

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.


He didn't teach them how to do natural things and up until the invention of the steam engine in the early 1800's life was much like He lived it. Humans had to rely on God to send the rain to make their food grow, for their livestock give birth, etc. Daniel 12:4 says that in the end times people will be going to and fro and knowledge will increase. That is certainly happening at an amazing/alarming rate and mostly not for the good. On this side of the pond more and more parents are refusing to have their children get vaccinated as there are more links to the autism & childhood cancer. Yes there is fewer if any smallpox, polio, or even measles out breaks but has man invented miracle drugs that have held these diseases at bay but only creating further need for chemical medicines with death-causing side effects. But that is price of turning to man's inventions instead of allowing God to manifest His presence through us with the same faith-building signs, wonders & miracles that stopped a 12 year flow of blood just by touching the hem of Jesus' garment or being healed when Peter's shadow fell on them.



Let us walk by faith and not by sight and trust Him with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding, but acknowledge Him in all our ways & He will direct our path.
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Last edited by:

jamesgodson: Feb 10, 2019, 7:28 PM
 
Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
jamesgodson: Hi. A lot of hard work went into your reply by the look of it.

This might just be semantics or a different 'flavor', but what are the new-born & those who have never heard actually saved from since according to Romans 1:18-20 - ALL have heard and they are without excuse and verse 21 continues showing their refusal to honor God.?

These words were addressed exclusively only to adults, presumably who could hear the gospel and make decisions for themselves.You can't have it both ways. 'Baptists' insist that "babies can't hear the gospel or have faith" so they can't be saved. But if they can't hear and therefore can't not believe that would mean they have a perfect excuse because they cannot therefore be included in the "ALL" that you suppose "heard without excuse through failing to believe".

And what about the natives in Outer Nowhere who have never ever yet heard "the gospel", are they also "without excuse"?

There is something wrong with your theology, I'll leave it to your good self to find out what that might be. There is some urgency about your finding out though because your wrong assumptions limit God's Grace and malign His character, that is a serious matter.

Let us walk by faith and not by sight and trust Him with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding, but acknowledge Him in all our ways & He will direct our path.

It would be truly wonderful if we all had the full degree of faith that Jesus had. Unfortunately not many of us get past the mustard seed sized variety. I don't know how many miraculous healings you have managed to perform through 'walking by your faith', but concentrating entirely upon 'doing faith walking miracles', rather than studying modern medicine, engineering, physics, economics, agriculture etc. seems to me to be failing to do what we can do, and trying to do what we can't do. In other words, wasting our time here on earth NOT doing what we could do to improve things, and all to the Glory of God, because we would be doing it 'in faith and gratitude for what God has done for us'. (Read my signature).

It may be that failing to do what we could have done, will be what we are accused of when we finally face our Master. Matt.25:25-28. I do think you will be told off for not even having enough faith to 'go about doing good' like Jesus did.

I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom.12:3.

God gave you a brain and a mind and a responsibility to use them to The Glory of God. Constantly knocking on Jesus' prayer door expecting Him to fix all your problems for you is not using the strength, mind and soul you should be "Loving the Lord your God with".

Consequences might follow from that at the Great White Throne.

In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Feb 13, 2019, 3:43 AM
 
Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
James-

You end your last post with this:

<<On this side of the pond more and more parents are refusing to have their children get vaccinated as there are more links to the autism & childhood cancer. Yes there is fewer if any smallpox, polio, or even measles out breaks but has man invented miracle drugs that have held these diseases at bay but only creating further need for chemical medicines with death-causing side effects. But that is price of turning to man's inventions instead of allowing God to manifest His presence through us with the same faith-building signs, wonders & miracles that stopped a 12 year flow of blood just by touching the hem of Jesus' garment or being healed when Peter's shadow fell on them. >>

There are parents who will not vaccinate their children, because they are ill-informed and often poorly educated whether wealthy or not, dwell in a cult-like atmosphere of "natural is better" and have never known anyone whose family or small town was devastated by childhood diseases, such as dypyheria, measles, mumps, pertussis (whooping cough).

One parent was quoted as believing that it is better for her child to contract the disease, so that her body can fight it off naturally and make its own antibodies. Well, if she survives and does so without damages. Maybe the parent would like to be introduced to small pox, as she most likely did not receive the vaccine when she was a child, because it was no longer being offered. Then she could fight it off naturally and make her own antibodies. Do you think she would take the offer?

Vaccines are not linked to autism, period. Autism is most likely to be genetically linked. The autism spectrum is very broad, which is why it is now claimed that one in 54 children are diagnosed with autism.

What is occurring lately is that the herd protection, which allowed parents to keep vaccines from their kids, has broken down as more parents opted out and now we are witnessing those long ago diseases popping up. This is scaring parents, as it should, and people are backing off the no-vaccines program. Schools should return to the "no vaccine, no admittance" policy they once held and in fact, I believe some states have done so.

Autism has always been with us. Cancer has always been with us.

Chris, how is it in Europe? Are there parents who still believe the deliberate lie about vaccines and autism? Is there a cult that surrounds that terrible myth, as there is in this country?

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [jeanne53] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Jeanne: Hi

Unfortunately yes, there is, but it is less driven by fundamentalist religion and more by just plain ignorance or gullibility
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In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Feb 15, 2019, 12:47 PM
 
Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Well, actually, that is the way it is here, too. Most of the people who cling to this cult of no-vaccines do so from ignorance and not religious beliefs.

We have Hollywood stars to thank for much of the drivel that passes for intelligent thought about science and government.

And, considering their stance on abortion and pedophilia, they can't actually be Christians, though they profess to be.

-Jeanne
"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
 
Re: [jeanne53] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners) In reply to
Well, actually, that is the way it is here, too. Most of the people who cling to this cult of no-vaccines do so from ignorance and not religious beliefs.

Maybe I am just too tired of reading this drivel over and over again so that I had to respond to it. And then I am reminded of how I would have reacted in the old days to someone who called another person's comment "a drivel", and think to myself, "It is time to go." Or at least "go to bed". It is 4:56 a.m. and I have been up most of the night. No excuse for a bad attitude.

Actually, I only get a bad attitude when I read posts like this last one Jeanne posted and I continue to let it lie. So I am going to respond quickly, and then close the thread.

That fact that I believe in no (or at least "very few" vaccines) does not put me in a cult. Nor is it from religious beliefs. It is simply from the fact of watching it for a lifetime and concluding for myself which is best. I do not give any credit to Hollywood stars, or anyone else for my beliefs. I have come to them through a lifetime of living and watching and experiencing and staying mostly healthy except for Lyme Disease, which has a story of it's own and is not being discussed here.

I'm not sure to whom you are referring when you are considering "their" stance on abortion and pedophilia... I will only say that if they are in favor of it, they are most likely NOT Christians. I have known several Christians who had abortions in earlier life and ALL are sorry. Not one would do it again. For myself.... I went through the difficult situation of having a baby out of wedlock... extremely tough... but made all right again one day when as an adult, he said to me, "Thank you for not having an abortion." I was NOT a born-again Christian at that time.

I am simply posting here just to say, Jeanne, that you are totally wrong in everything you say in this post. People do what they do for their own personal reasons and each one can be different. You cannot always put people into a group.
Blessings ~ Sarah