Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can’t spend it. You can’t invest it, you can’t give it to anybody, you can’t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?



Now according to the bible, God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but there is a catch; you can’t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God’s will) then unless your will mirror’s God’s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.



So you have God saying, “I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don’t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.



Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can’t spend, or invest, free will under God’s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God’s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.



So what good is free will if you can’t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??



Ken

Hi Ken. Good to see you!



I think this is way too simple a version of the God of Christianity's determination of free will. If I have learned anything about Christian belief, I have learned that it is as diverse and complex as any other human concept or human and Creator relationship.



I don't think I am expressing myself very well.



The concept of God's Word, which many Christians have does not fit into such a neat scenario. I think the relationship is a very complicated one, especially where free will is concerned. I suspect there are several here who could elaborate better than I....who, afterall, am a determinist and materialist, let alone an atheist.



Still...free will ...what a notion!



As a determinist, I reason that we must behave as if free will exists if we want to live in a civilized society. I am beginning to think that those are becoming extinct ...if they ever existed.



I must live that way. I must believe that my choices have affected the path of my life. For the better, hopefully. I must believe that I have struggled to avoid evil by making good decisions, but I must also believe that my poor decisions haven't completely destroyed that which could have been better. For sanity's sake, I must believe that I have some control over my life.



But when I pare it all away, I know that free will is non-existant...and yet, I have hope that somehow we can save ourselves through our "choices" and hope that what was set in motion eons ago will turn out all right.



I envy believers their faith in God.



-Jeanne

Growing up, my parents took me to church even though they didn't believe the Bible. Public school taught me to believe in my 5 senses. My morals value was based on everything is OKAY – as long as you don't get caught! But from a very early age, I remember trying to hide the things I did because somehow in my mind, I knew that they were wrong – even without someone telling me it was. It was my free will all right, but the consequences became more than I could bear.



The scenario of the $1,000,000 gift only being payable upon death if we give up our will for His will isn't the whole story. There are many blessings to receive while living in this world and doing His will means I'm being led to do things the right way instead of continuing to do things I'm not proud of and then suffering the consequences – hurting my emotions, destroying relationships, making unproductive choices in life in general.

A better $1,000,000 scenario is God is like a father that owns the whole universe who gives talents to all his sons and daughters and then offers to train them to make a nice life here on earth with a promise of a fantastic retirement when we die and go to Heaven. He is the ultimate CEO and those children who believe that HE has made a great company and want to help Him build it, will follow His instructions. They are the ones who receive the benefits – the fruit basket filled with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, and faith. Those that don't follow His instructions only get what they deserve, but everybody relinquishes their free will to obtain a benefit. What fruit are you reaping with your free will?

I dare you to ask God if He is real. He will tell you He is, but only if you ask. Are you CHICKEN?

Kenny :

Hi - It's been a long time. Good to see you hanging on in there with the no God squad.

Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can’t spend it. You can’t invest it, you can’t give it to anybody, you can’t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

No!

Now according to the bible, God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but there is a catch; you can’t use it.

Can we have some references please. I’m not convinced that the bible actually says what you suggest here.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God’s will) then unless your will mirror’s God’s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

Are you suggesting then that the use of ‘free will’ in selfish, hedonistic abandon should not reap unpleasant consequences? Surely even atheists believe ‘stupidity’ is not the same as ‘free will’.

So you have God saying, “I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don’t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

No. You have God saying that and as with most atheists you do not know the mind or motive of an entity you claim to deny the very existence of.

You therefore postulate a baseless assumption by setting up a ‘straw man’ which easily crashes and burns.

because if you use God’s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

Once again I would like to see the scripture upon which this assumption is based. Otherwise I will assume it is just an uninformed personal opinion.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

I can see now why you don’t believe in such a God as the one you seem to describe. I could not either. Fortunately it does not seem to be the God I know nor the one found within the pages of scripture, properly read and understood.

So what good is free will if you can’t use it?

I certainly feel 'free' to choose between whatever options present themselves to me. God does not seem to me to be telling me I must not choose some of them. It feels more to me like He says "Some of these options are better than others, so choose wisely".

You seem to me to be labouring under the false impression that your freedom to deny the existence of God and choose unwisely (unrestricted free will), proves God’s non existence, because God could compel you to choose wisely but your will can override His every time.

I don’t think it does, unless God is obliged to make everyone believe in him but fails.

I for one am convinced God is under no such obligation. You are ‘free’ to choose to believe what you will, just as you would be free to damage your own health by alcohol, tobacco or narcotic abuse. God will not stop you. He may well try to talk you out of it or even visit you with the consequences of your own stupidity, (much the same thing in my opinion), until you decide to use your ‘free will’ more ‘wisely’, but nevertheless you would still appear to have God given 'freedom of choice'.

Regards Chris.

Hi, Ken, good to see you.



I have to jump in here because I believe your whole premise is wrong.



God does NOT send to hell those who do not do His will. According to that statement, all would go to hell. None could be saved. Salvation is a matter of the heart, not the actions. It would be better to say that God offers us opportunities to improve our life. We can take them or reject them. We have choices, i.e. free will.



As a Christian, I benefit if I hear His voice and respond to it. If I do not hear it or ignore it, I take my consequences which could either be good or bad.



I just think you have made way too many assumptions here.

Wow! Lot’s of replies! I might have to start checking here every day now instead of once per week like back in the day!



Jeanne (quote) “Hi Ken. Good to see you!



I think this is way too simple a version of the God of Christianity's determination of free will. If I have learned anything about Christian belief, I have learned that it is as diverse and complex as any other human concept or human and Creator relationship.”



(reply) Hello Jeanne! Good to hear from you again as well. It’s been so long since anybody has posted anything on the Atheist forum, I just had to put something down to see if people were still reading it.

Yes I realize Christian belief is quite diverse some don’t believe in the actual existence of Hell, some don’t believe bible stories were actual events, and of course some don’t believe God gives us free will; but many do and I sorta started this post for those who do.

I understand you don’t think it is possible for free will to exist; which is a concept I’ve heard of, but could never understand. Maybe you can start a topic on that subject.



Jamesgodson (quote) “Growing up, my parents took me to church even though they didn't believe the Bible. Public school taught me to believe in my 5 senses. My morals value was based on everything is OKAY – as long as you don't get caught! But from a very early age, I remember trying to hide the things I did because somehow in my mind, I knew that they were wrong – even without someone telling me it was. It was my free will all right, but the consequences became more than I could bear.”



(reply) Judging from the decisions you’ve chosen, maybe you shouldn’t be allowed free will. But what about those who would not use their free will in such a destructive and immoral fashion as you?



“The scenario of the $1,000,000 gift only being payable upon death if we give up our will for His will isn't the whole story”



Actually that isn’t the story at all! Perhaps you should read it again!



“There are many blessings to receive while living in this world and doing His will means I'm being led to do things the right way instead of continuing to do things I'm not proud of and then suffering the consequences – hurting my emotions, destroying relationships, making unproductive choices in life in general.”



As I said before, maybe YOU shouldn’t be given free will because of your destructive nature; but what about those of us whose will isn’t God’s will but our behavior is equally as moral as the behavior of those who do follow God’s will?

Next when I said: “Now according to the bible, God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but there is a catch; you can’t use it.

”



Rdrcofe replied (quote) “Can we have some references please. I’m not convinced that the bible actually says what you suggest here.”



(reply) Many Christians claim the free will argument to justify man’s propensity to sin and that God gives this free will. If this is not your opinion, then this thread is not for you. As far as “you can’t use it” if you believe God provides punishment for those who don’t follow his will, that is akin to saying “you can’t use it”



“Are you suggesting then that the use of ‘free will’ in selfish, hedonistic abandon should not reap unpleasant consequences? Surely even atheists believe ‘stupidity’ is not the same as ‘free will’.”



Naaw I’m saying choosing a will that is not Gods will but results in behavior that is morally equivalent to those who do follow God’s will shouldn’t result in any more unpleasant consequences than those who follow God’s will.



“No. You have God saying that and as with most atheists you do not know the mind or motive of an entity you claim to deny the very existence of.”



I have the same information on what is claimed to be God’s will as you do; I can read a bible ya know.

Next when I said: “because if you use God’s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned”



Rdrcofe said “Once again I would like to see the scripture upon which this assumption is based. Otherwise I will assume it is just an uninformed personal opinion.”



John 14:6



“You seem to me to be labouring under the false impression that your freedom to deny the existence of God and choose unwisely (unrestricted free will), proves God’s non existence, because God could compel you to choose wisely but your will can override His every time.”



No I am laboring under the impression that according to the bible, my freedom to deny the existence of God; even if I choose wisely, will result in punishment form said God.

I was just trying to make the point to those who believe God gives us free will; that yes we do have free will but it doesn’t come from God.



Sarah (quote) “God does NOT send to hell those who do not do His will. According to that statement, all would go to hell. None could be saved. Salvation is a matter of the heart, not the actions. It would be better to say that God offers us opportunities to improve our life. We can take them or reject them. We have choices, i.e. free will.”



Supposed it were my will to pray to Allah, or Vinishu? Would he send me to hell for that? Supposed it were my will to not worship or pray at all because I found it demeaning; but my behavior was morally equal to those who do his will? Would he send me to hell for that?



Peace

Ken

Hi Ken :



Many Christians claim the free will argument to justify man’s propensity to sin and that God gives this free will.



My belief is not so much that God ‘gives’ free will but that it is God’s intention that we have freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is not free will, it is merely the freedom to choose between a limited number of possible options.



This might look to you like splitting hairs but consider the following illustration.



A loving Father brings up two sons in the way that they should go, (that is, to exhibit behaviour that is morally equivalent to those who follow what they believe to be God’s will in a ‘religious’ sense.



One son becomes a doctor, the other a garbage collector. Both enjoy and are very good at their chosen professions.



The choice of profession is not necessarily a moral choice but it is a choice and a loving Father would not punish either of his sons for exercising their freedom of choice as they saw fit. To do so would imply that they had no real ‘choice’ but to either please their father or offend him if they chose wrongly in his estimation. In fact, both chose to do things which were of great value to society and demonstrated admirably the moral values instilled by their father.



With moral choices it is different. If one Son chose a life of debauchery and crime, throwing off what he perceived as a ‘yoke of oppression’ imposed on him throughout childhood by his father, then an understanding father would have to regard this son as ‘a lost cause’ until the son mended his ways, began to make ‘wise’ choices and admit to himself that he’d got it wrong and the old man wasn’t really so bad after all.



The Father has not punished the son for his obstinate stupidity, life itself will do that, given the son’s all pervading belligerence, until he comes to his senses.



Then his Dad would still be there for him because he loves him, not just because he seeks control over him.



Many ‘Christians’ fail to make the right connections when reading the parable of the Prodigal Son. They just cannot imagine any other God than their pagan God of Reward and Punishment. For them the key part of the story is the sons repentance.



A confession of guilt, (they wrongly think), is what Jesus is insisting upon as prerequisite to forgiveness. They have not read the story properly because :



The Father knew nothing of the Prodigals change of heart, it happened long before and far away. The Father cut short the son’s carefully rehearsed speech of contrition and just ran out and hugged him refusing to treat him as just a hired hand.



That is what God is like.



; I can read a bible ya know.



Well read it for yourself then - Luke 15:11-32



“if you use God’s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned” (John 14:6)



And you think John 14:6 demonsrates support for this?



Jesus replied, ‘I am the Way; I am the truth and I am the life; no one comes to the Father except by me.



Many ‘Christians’ try to suggest this verse means only ‘Christians’ can ‘come to the Father’ to the exclusion of all others.



They fail to see what appears to me to be obvious. That Jesus is actually saying anyone whose Way is to respect truth and life ‘comes to the Father’. Anyone who has contempt for truth and life, in effect, despises what He, Jesus, stands for and is therefore “a lost cause” as far as The Father is concerned until they change their ways.



No I am laboring under the impression that according to the bible, my freedom to deny the existence of God; even if I choose wisely, will result in punishment form said God.



Then labour no longer for your impression is false. I can find no example of God punishing either for ignorance of His existence or for denying His existence through lack of supporting evidence.



Where you might come unstuck however is if you were to deny God’s existence when face to face with irrefutable evidence. To do so would be to knowingly violate the Truth and that would be what would preclude the possibility of your “Coming to The Father”. It would place you among the class of people who have deliberately denied the truth. That's perjury, a serious offence.



I think the likelihood of you coming face to face with irrefutable evidence of God’s existence so remote that you could be reasonably safe for the moment Ken. Just be prepared to change your mind if God decides to reveal Himself to you sometime.



Regards Chris.

So is it your opinion that anyone, weather they are Christian or not; can still go to Heaven as long as their behavior and their heart is good?



K

Kenny :

So is it your opinion that anyone, whether they are Christian or not; can still go to Heaven as long as their behaviour and their heart is good

If you are wanting the short answer to your question which doesn’t tell you why I believe this, then it would have to be . . . . . . . yes .

If you want the long answer with my reasoning for reaching the conclusion then here goes.

1 Sam. 16:7 “the LORD does not see as mortals see; they look on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.”

Not only deeds but also motives come under the judgment of God.

Ps. 7:10 says “My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

If anyone can truly claim to be ‘righteous’ (for an atheist the moral equivalent of religious ) then their defender is God and He has the power to acquit.

1 Ki. 8:39 “only God knows what is in every human heart”

Ps. 44:21 “would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.

Ps. 15:1-5 “ Oh Lord, who may lodge in your tabernacle? Who may dwell on thy holy mountain?
Those who walk blamelessly, and do what is right,
and speak the truth from their heart;
who do not slander with their tongue,
and do no evil to their friends,
nor take up a reproach against their neighbours;
in whose eyes the wicked are despised,
but who honour those who fear the LORD;
who stand by their oath even to their hurt;
who do not lend money at interest,
and do not take a bribe against the innocent.
Those who do these things shall never be moved.

Any human being who is really honest with themselves must admit that they are not blameless nor truly pure in heart at all times. Those who deny this are sinners by virtue of the fact that they have deceived themselves and are trying to deceive others.

Ps. 51:17 “The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Ps. 51:10 “Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and put a new and right spirit within me.

The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are poor in spirit, ( or admit and bewail their imperfection ). It also belongs to those who suffer persecution for the cause of right and truth. Matt. 5:3,10

Jesus said nothing in these two key beatitudes about the Kingdom of Heaven belonging only to ‘Christian believers’ .

Ps. 73:1-3 “Truly God is good to the upright,
to those who are pure in heart.
But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled;
my steps had nearly slipped.
For I was envious of the arrogant;
I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

Clearly God approves of purity of heart, (even in atheists). God hates ‘religion’, God loves justice and mercy.

So the Kingdom of heaven belongs even to atheists as long as their behaviour and their heart is good.

However there is a catch. Human nature!

Prov. 20:9-11 “Who can say, “I have made my heart clean;
I am pure from my sin”?
False weights and diverse measures
are both alike an abomination to the LORD.
Even children make themselves known by their acts,
by whether what they do is pure and right.

Prov. 21:2-4 “All deeds are right in the sight of the doer,
but the LORD weighs the heart.
To do righteousness and justice
is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
Haughty eyes and a proud heart—
the lamp of the wicked—are sin.

Heb. 4:12-13 “Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.

1 Pet. 3:8-12 “Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing. It is for this that you were called—that you might inherit a blessing. For
“Those who desire life
and desire to see good days,
let them keep their tongues from evil
and their lips from speaking deceit;
let them turn away from evil and do good;
let them seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

If you truly have nothing to hide from friends, neighbours, loved ones, family etc. and even from God (were he to prove to actually exist), then you have nothing to fear from The Judgment. Your heart is clean, your conscience is clear, you can approach the throne of God, (even as an ex atheist) and claim your part in the Kingdom of heaven on the basis of the words of Jesus Christ. Matt. 5: 3, 10

However If you are even slightly less confident of your own inherent righteousness, and purity of motive, then you have need of the redeeming act already performed for you and all who avail themselves of it, by Jesus Christ, whereby He has gone before you to plead on your behalf, testifying to the purity of your heart, (if indeed it is pure). The judgment will be entirely based upon your deeds with mitigating circumstances depending upon your motives . If you are not confident that you are truly righteous, then your only appeal will have to be faith alone in His Sacrificial Death on your behalf .

That is what I believe it means to be a 'Christian'.

Regards Chris.

Thanks for your perspective.



Ken

Hi guys!



Ken, the discovery that I do not accept free will came nearly a decade ago when a very gung ho young Christian man spent a good 30 minutes trying to persuade me that IF I believed in free will then I had to believe in God. I do so wish I had made and kept a copy of the online discourse. He was astounded and disappointed when he instead convinced me that I did not believe in free will.



We had this discussion here years ago, I think. I don't know if I have the time or will to rehash it all. Einstein was a determinist and it is from him I paraphrased the notion that we must act as if free will existed should we seek to live in a civilized society. "I am compelled to act as if free will existed because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly."



Chris, your post was so enlightening that I copied and pasted it...hope you don't mind.



If only those who choose to do evil would fail in life every time. I am afraid it often appears that it doesn't matter if one makes poor ethical choices unless there is a belief of punishment in an afterlife. Then again, those who choose to do good don't often get what some might consider to be well rewarded for their deeds. Sometimes the good guys get the shaft and the bad guys get the glory.



-Jeanne

Jeanne



(quote) "Ken, the discovery that I do not accept free will came nearly a decade ago when a very gung ho young Christian man spent a good 30 minutes trying to persuade me that IF I believed in free will then I had to believe in God. I do so wish I had made and kept a copy of the online discourse. He was astounded and disappointed when he instead convinced me that I did not believe in free will."



Hello Jeanne I wish you had kept the online discorse as well; I would have loved to see what arguments he made.

The idea of tying our free will to the Christian God seems strange to me; it seems the opposite should be the case. Many Christians believe their God is in charge that everything is going according to his plan, and for those christians I think a case can be made that we have no free will because they believe God is pulling the strings and we are sorta like puppets thus no free will.

So how are you defining Free will?



"I am compelled to act as if free will existed because if I wish to live in a civilized society I must act responsibly."



If you were to give up the "act" and behave as if free will does not exist, how would your behavior be different than it is now?



Ken

Let me offer a home-made parable, which I realize might contain opportunity for doctrinal debate later. For now I simply wish to relate biblical "free will".

First, a Bible fact. There are two families of people on earth. The vast majority are born "Children of the Devil", remaining in that family all their lives. The other family is the "Children of God". No other families are recognized by God.

The Children of Satan do not have "free will". Their minds are captive to the Kosmos, the world system. So here goes, I will play a part in a tale.

My name is Servant. I was born to serve in a desert household as a slave to a hard ruler named Master Sin. Until I was old no person mentioned a possibility of living elsewhere, serving some other master. It is an unthinkable subject among us slaves. We do what now is actually natural, all we know to do, whatever is allowed by Sin and his sons. Sin is a hard man, but he sees to our miserable flesh and bone needs, sometimes killing the hardest of workers on a whim. That keeps us slaves in line, keeps me from wanting to fight Sin, seeking to get along with everyone in the Sin household. In his household I am not allowed to think. I must only obey.

Not long ago a mighty troop with a fearless Captain came through this land, taking Sin captive. They told us slaves we were free to leave.
"But where to?", I asked them. "Follow us as free men and women. You are not obligated to this life here unless you remain here and refuse to follow a better life. In any case, Master Sin is defeated, has no real power over you except what you grant him in the future."

Many of us slaves accepted the offer, followed them on an unforgettable journey, arriving in a prosperous land with great cities. I had never imagined how free men could live. The people in the cities were happy folks, always quite kind to one another. But in time I felt I had left my lifelong friends behind, not easily conforming to that new life of freedom. I came to realize that being an obedient slave actually resulted in a tolerable society, stained by injustice all around, and frequently. I realize not one slave in my old home was happy, but we understood that life, a living hopeless death. I stayed long enough for all my whipping scars to heal, but with nobody to teach me the way of free men. I had so much to learn. I yearned to go home. I am convinced I was destined to be a slave, consigned to a default way of living assigned to most people. Who was I to think for a minute I deserved better?

I returned home to find a toothless and broken Master Sin who was allowed to return to his camp. He had no real power due to his conqueror, but I joined my fellow slaves in consenting to his continued authority over us. It was a life we understood, deserved.

In my heart I somehow realize there is a part of me that was still and would forever remain a free man with citizenship in that prosperous land. But my roots are in this desert with this miserable old man Sin. Am I damned forever? Maybe I missed something vital that would have kept me pursuing that other life. But the choice is mine. I had no choice, was given choice equal to a free man, and decided to live a life I was accustomed to.

End of parable one. Servant has years left to change his mind. The Master Sin is Satan. All are born to his camp. Some enter the world of free men with choice, while most choose to live out the life they were born into. Servant is but one of all humans who have to be told there is a life apart from Sin's dominion. Sin wishes to do your thinking for you. The simple let him to their own damnation.

Servant accepted a wonderful offer, followed the Captain with his host a while. The Captain is Jesus the Savior, the host his disciples. In Servant's innermost being he realized the Savior was one to be believed upon and followed, so way down deeply Servant seized upon that hope. In doing so his "spirit man" became forever delivered from Sin, forever bonded spiritually to Jesus. That unseen part of Servant would be eternally free.

Servant exercised a gift most slaves never get a chance to use, or even learn of. The power to choose. That power has to come from a Conqueror who releases people from whatever bondage they find is overtaking them. Until Jesus came by Servant had no power whatsoever, no choice. But once Sin was conquered, Servant had possession of "free will", to choose to serve God, or man.

If Servant never again chooses to follow the path of free men, will he be damned forever upon his death? The part of his that caused him to trust in the Captain will be eternally saved from damnation, eternal punishment. But will every bit of Servant be denied blessing? No. He can meditate on what he discovered in the land of blessing, altering his actions in that desert. He will find help in making a better spiritual life. He can live outside his enslaved body, withholding some of his mind from the taskmaster. He will retain the power of choice to find ways to get his mind renewed, becoming more like the Conqueror. But many fail to move on, stopping off along the way of the Captain, even returning to where they started from. That isn't the way of an Adventurer.

What of those people not accepting the offer of the Captain? They remain in their former state, still subjects of a conquered sin master, with no hope, no vision.

In the present life each human is made up of three parts. The spirit man. The soul. The body. The Bible teaches that God wishes all three parts of the whole man be preserved together for eternity. But there's a condition for all being saved in one whole being. It is a renewing of the mind, eventually conforming to the thinking of the very successful, the very great Captain. In doing so the saved spirit man will be able to comprehend the values of the Conqueror. Who would desire to imitate the values of the conquered? Each chooser is given some insight into His thinking. He is not a hard man like Master Sin. He asks of His kingdom adherents simple changes in thinking. Here's a great list of what the Captain expects of followers.

2 Peter 1:4-10 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Please point out to me one evil virtue in that list. I find none. All of those work together to form a great society and sound souls. All such souls are heir to great promises in this life and the life to come. Those who reject such good things are bound over to eternal UN-glory, to fitting punishment, based on rejection of what is obviously holy and pure.

I find "Servant' is everywhere, disillusioned people who might have tasted freedom, but have returned to a life of being bound by their own choice to old soulish behavior. If you ever once truly trusted in Jesus to deliver you, he did, and stands ready to finish what He began in you. Meanwhile, your mind, emotions, memories, and a body enslaved to all those old curses teams up on your spirit man, winning its evil ways, keeping yuo enslaved to an evil master who really has no power to enslave you. You might say "I am not a slave.", but God warns you are if not found hidden in Christ.

Study it out. Many Christians are here on Praize to try guiding you, but know today the Bible is the final state's evidence that will decide how your end of life trial is decided. It will come down to who your master was. Rise above Servant's decision. return to the city called "Blessing", submit to Jesus. That is your only choice other than a default existence. Believe upon the kind master. His burden is far lighter than that of Master Sin. Choose you this day who you shall serve. If you choose right, His blessings are yours, each given in exchange for every cursing sent your way. Learn of His blessings one by one to begin realizing them.

A major point to conclude with is God never offers powers or gifts that can't be exercised in this life. The problem for most folks is hesitation to act upon whatever God has offered them. God will deliver anyone that accepts his offer from a slave mentality to that of a free soul. There is no free will until he offers it. Once he gives it, he doesn't take it away. Until there is an offer and acceptance, we remain without choices by default. From then on the quality of our lives directly hinges upon a renewal of our minds so we can make more right choices, abandoning bad ones. I want to make it clear that nobody will go to hell for sins. Who we choose as master does determine our eternal destiny. How well we follow our master affects how well we navigate this life. You have spiritual choices to make as well as soul and body choices. A person can chose rightly spiritually, but die a terrible death with AIDS because of failure to conform the mind to that of Christ.

If indeed, as you asked I found I had no free will, then I'd be forever locked into kinship with Satan, a hopeless slave to sin, never able to control my mind or body. Yes, some people like Einstein figured out they ought to at least behave as through there is free will. He recognized the obvious results of godliness as affecting how people making up a civilized society relate to one another. That alone ought to cause anyone to halt, asking why. Why does adherence to godly choices make for a better civilization, enough to emulate Christians? Why don't evil people create lasting and blessed communities? My answer is God made humans to best cooperate in the realm of good, while that of hatred and evil tends to destroy individuals and whole societies.

Jim
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This could go on until we have a novel Consider some scenarios. Upon Servant's return "home", fellow servants have obviously held some questions concerning what became of him. They might ask...
What was it like out there?
Why would you leave such a wonderful place?
Why did you come back to this misery if that place was so fine?
Did you learn enough to help us do better?
Will you hide your new knowledge from us?
How did Captain so disarm Master Sin?

Perhaps Servant actually has a ministry in that desert camp? What might happen if others grasp the gravity of believing upon Captain Jesus, deciding to seek his city out? What might the desert camp be like if all left and didn't return? Will Servant "spend" the wonderful revelation he received, or pack it all into a chest as though indeed commanded never to cash in?

The point remains. God doesn't give gifts never meant to be used.

Jim
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Moving on through the OP, let's look at that definition of "sin". The Hebrew for that in Genesis 4:7 and throughout the period before and after the Law of Moses is chatta'ah. Since there was no law yet, it couldn't mean more than it meant, "offense" or "lack" and other similar definitions. It meant any failure that offended the offender or offended, whether God had entered into the subject or not. It could be as slight as slapping a friend on the back causing him to spill some coffee on himself. Simple accidents can offend, many are instantly forgiven.

The Law made sin more sinful, according to Paul. It put in writing judgments from God concerning behavior that directly offends him. The only way to come out from under that enhancement of sin (a list of definitions of serious offenses) was to die. Once a person dies he is free from the Law. But while alive it is the Law that teaches people what sin is.

Let me jump to how being "in Christ" relates to that. Jesus died, being freed from the Law as was proper for any other Jew. But in his case he was resurrected, thereby walking alive after being freed from the curse of the Law. The Bible makes it clear that when a person believes on and trusts in Jesus for salvation, he too dies spiritually to that old Law, raising up alive with Jesus in baptism, walking untouched by the Law. He then walks under the new law of Christ, that of love. In that way keeping of the Law isn't what determined our eternal destiny. Instead, it is our faith, our abiding trust, that Jesus paid all that was due toward the Law, in Himself, for every follower. That cost him his blood. The Greek word for sin, hamartia, points to the same offenses the Jews knew, but breaking them isn't what consigns people to hell. Unbelief does. The reason is Jesus' blood washes believers of the stain of sin. Without leaning on that blood there is no hope for a sinner. Without the Spirit in us it is impossible not to sin. Separated from God there can be no forgiveness of sin, because unbelief leaves a person a slave to sin, a child of the Devil. God gained legal access to every human to revel himself at least once, seeing Satan enjoys such access. But more importantly, men whom God awarded dominion over earth, have spoken to "authorize" intervention from God. He might visit just once in a lifetime, offering salvation based on the hearing of a single verse of scripture, giving that person but one chance to accept his offer.

How do I relate to he Law? I love the Law. It teaches me not to hate. But most of us probably grew up under a large list of "Dont's", without a comparable lists of "Do's". Jesus fills that gap with ways to love, curiously avoiding emphasis on Dont's. Once Love is strong in us we will tend to not choose to be evil, unlike our situation before salvation, too comfortable with sin, whether sinning or witnessing it. As a result I am very careful over what I view, not caring to watch movies where a murderer kills, a rapist rapes, or an affair is underway. What apparently was entertaining, watching endless sinning, has become disturbing to me. My viewing habits exclude episodes of sin behavior. That increased my blocks of quality time to spend with loved ones, to enjoy my labors, to help neighbors, to minister to needs, to learn to cook healthy meals of real food, to study the Word, pray, and engage in more satisfying recreation. I don't think about sin. I am always meditating over scriptures, witnessing to folks. I don't have a checklist of Moses' laws on the refrigerator.

Again, what about holy living is more evil than living as an unbeliever? What is wrong with teachings about love and righteousness (right-standing before the holy God)?

Jim
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Hello Jim

I know it’s been a long time since you posted, but just incase you return, I will comment hoping for a reply from you.



*interesting story; if we assume the children of Satan arenon-Christians, and children of God are Christians, and the non-Christians areslaves to sin, but the Christians are free, I challenge you to list one thingthe slaves are unable to do that the free can. I contend you’ve gotten it allbackwards; that if there are slaves in the scenario, that it would be the Christianswho are a slave to Christ, and the non Christians who are free to do as theyplease. How many times have you heard a Christian say “not my will but God’swill is my purpose in life” (all the time) how many times have you heard a non-Christiansay; “not my will but Satan’s will is my purpose in life” (never). I am a non-Christian,and I don’t even recognize the existence of Satan or sin. How is it possiblefor a slave to not recognize the existence of his master? Something to thinkabout.



*Do you believe Christians are perfect? Most Christian’s Iknow admit they are not perfect and they occasionally sin; as one person putit, Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.

If that’s the case, then according to your sceneario, 100%of the servants of Jesus are constantly going to serve the master of sin, andat the end of the day they return to their Jesus master and ask for forgivenessknowing eventually they will return to the master of sin to occasionally do hisbidding every now and then. But none of the slaves to sin go to Jesus to do hisbidding, they are perfectly content doing the bidding of Satan; occasionally rightalongside the servants of Jesus. Now tell me again… who did you say won thewar???

If Jesus conquered sin, why are his followers constantlycheating on him and cohabiting with his enemy? Now don’t get me wrong, I am notsuggesting anybody is a slave, or anyone got conquered, I’m just working withinthe scenario you presented. Something to think about.
Ken