I'm pretty sure god does not want people to believe in him just for security since that really isn't belief. so the whole idea of safe and unsafe is not the question.



this means that you cannot be a true believer if you do believe in this way and you are, in fact agnostic. i am saying this from an atheists point of view so if Christians feel differently please explain.



i am replying to the original post here and since i have not read all the posts since then i do not know if this point has been already forwarded. if so sorry!

YHWH's sovereign selection is not disposable. The children of YAH(God) were chosen before creation, and His timing of their profession and life are in His will.



One can not go from "beleiver" to "non-beleiver" by choice, when they say they do they were never a chosen child to begin with.



People ride the coat-tail and comforts of declaring "I am a beleiver" all the time. Eventually a time comes when one has to

acknowledge who they are, where they've been, and what they want,

and those who arent willing to let the dead bury their own, or give up a comfort they hide in, will be revlead by the Ruach ha-Kodesh(Holy Spirit) at some point, in some fashion.



The Lie can not be hid from YAH's will.



Yahowshua is Moshiach

Jesus is Messiah

Interesting...



Let us continue this discussion...but later on, as my daily life intrudes. Good to read you again, Mark.

Jeanne, I just now read your post. Thank you so much for sharing such a personal experience.



It sounds to me like you are judging Christianity on people's behavior. Right behavior is not a requirement for a Christian but a joy. If one is saying he is a Christian yet is not behaving rightly towards others, I would doubt his Christianity. It is absolutely necessary for me to behave rightly towards others in order to have joy in my life. Does that mean I never behave poorly towards another? No. But when I don't, I lose my joy.



It is not behavior that makes a Christian or a non-Christian. It is that I choose to have a personal relationship with God and Jesus. That is what faith is all about. I choose to have faith and believe that God exists and Jesus is who the Bible says He is. I also choose to behave in a way that will honor God. Without both of these things, a person is not a Christian.

Jeanne :



Thanks for your testimony, (though not actually addressed to me). It made very interesting reading for me and explained very well how you arrived ‘where you are, and who you are’. I hope our paths may one day meet in circumstances pleasant for us both.



I was not a racist like most of my white classmates. I began to question the truth of their faith.



I once picked up a hitch-hiker who related to me a similar experience, in which he estimated fellow parishioners ‘hypocrites and liars’. I asked him “By what standard did he reach that conclusion” i.e. where and how did he learn to decide ‘right from wrong and true judgment’. He thought about it and said, “They didn’t behave in the way I imagined Jesus would have actually wanted and in the way I had been told was right”.



Well done, I said. You have passed God’s first test of integrity. Now use your freedom from hypocrisy and cant to live an ethical life, then you need fear no judgment. That is all Jesus wanted of any of us and that is what will make the world a better place, not pious, bigoted, misguided religious clap-trap aimed at making other people feel shame and guilt.



What was real? The presence of God within them, which somehow still allowed such hatred, or my love for others without the presence of God?



How can you be so sure that ‘your love for others was not the real thing and theirs just the pressure to conform to the prevailing religious environment?



Why assume that you lacked the presence of God when your love was obviously genuine.



Obviously something was wrong with me.



Exactly what they wanted you to think. Idiots do not like independent thinkers. Hypocrites do not like honest people.



God was not there, What were you expecting? A burning bush perhaps? Don’t worry, He will be there if you really need Him. In the meantime I’d say you’re doing fine.



I was also questioning much more, reading, listening, thinking and even praying.



What more can anyone do when getting on with life to the best of their ability?



God was not there, Again, how do you know?



My fellow classmates are all still good Christians.



There are no good ‘Christians’, (only God is good), there are only grateful, appreciative and therefore generous ‘Christians’, they stand out from the crowd and are pretty accepting of everyone, because they know what life is about.



I am an atheist with a strong ethical code of behavior.



I’m pretty sure that God prefers it that way, rather than have you be in denial of everything you have discovered to ‘be true’.



Shakespeare, I think, said “to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.”



Falsehood in oneself is one of the major things we need fear judgment for. Let’s hope we can both avoid it.



Regards Chris.

Redsox



“YHWH's sovereign selection is not disposable. The children of YAH(God) were chosen before creation, and His timing of their profession and life are in His will.



One can not go from "beleiver" to "non-beleiver" by choice,”



What about those whom YAH did not choose? Were they dammed for hell before they were born?



K

What about those whom YAH did not choose? Were they dammed for hell before they were born?

The light has always been separated from the darkness, before any man was ever created;



Day 1;



Gen 1:3 God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.



Gen 1:4 God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness.



Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. There was evening and there was morning, one day.



Day 3;



Gen 1:14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;



Gen 1:15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of sky to give light on the eretz," and it was so.



Yah is the light, of the world, from the beginning;



Jhn 8:12 Again, therefore, Yahowshua spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life."



Those in darkness, dont understand, comprehend, or accept, the light;





Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.





Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.



Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.



Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.



Jhn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn't overcome it.



True, born anew, born from above beleivers, are children of the light;



1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, aren't in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief.



1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light, and sons of the day. We don't belong to the night, nor to darkness,



1Th 5:6 so then let's not sleep, as the rest do, but let's watch and be sober.

When I asked:



What about those whom YAH did not choose? Were they dammed for hell before they were born



Redsox replied:



“The light has always been separated from the darkness, before any man was ever created;… Yah is the light, of the world, from the beginning…Those in darkness, dont understand, comprehend, or accept, the light;”



So are you saying Yah purposely created some to be in darkness and others to be in the light? And those he created to be dark are dammed to Hell? If not please explain.



K

Hi Sarah.



Long time getting back to this topic.



You say that I was judging Christianity on people's behavior...yes, well, and how else should it be judged?



If Christians claim to have a personal relationship with God, yet behave poorly and I claim not to have a personal relationship with God and behave well, then what should one believe about relationships with God?



Perhaps it is not faith and belief that guides human behavior, but our own moral language that is either in good working order or not. We have seen throughout history how group dynamics can make good moral people do evil and vice versa. How does the individual stack up when listening to their own inner moral language no matter what gods they believe in? How do they act with morals when their god or gods direct otherwise?



For what you would call True Christians perhaps their moral language fits nicely with God's guidance, while those lapse believers would have ethical dilemmas no matter their relationship with God or any other deity.



I look at my experience and find just humans who are ethically challenged, but who can keep trying to be honorable, and if faith in a loving God helps them try...that's a good deal by me. You are correct though, those with honor find joy in being honorable, while dishonor brings them pain and sorrow.



Hope you are well and happy, Sarah.

Hi Chris.



If I do not experience the presence of God, I must assume that God is not there. If God is there, why does God hide from me? If God hides from me, how does that encourage me to accept God's existence? If I was doing everything a good Christian should do, why not encourage me to continue in my faith and my Christian acts by acknowledging them with a presence? Why should I have continued to believe?



Others here have spoken of God's presence in their lives, why not mine? If they suddenly did not feel God's presence in their lives, would their faith falter? Would they continue to live with honor? Would they no longer experience joy?



Did it take a burning bush to allow them to feel God's presence? I never asked for such a sign, did they? Yet they feel God's presence in their lives...or do they? Is the mere act of living with honor and a joyful determination enough to seem as the presence of a loving God?



I am doing fine. Why?



How would I know God's presence? How would it be different from my own conscience, my own response to fear or joy or sorrow? How would it be different from the workings of my body's ability to handle stressors in my experience? So far...I have not known God's presence. God has been so elusive that I doubt any condition would make me accept that what I was experiencing was God's presence.



It that my fault? "Mysterious ways" have kept me an atheist. If that is God's plan for me then it is fool proof, apparently. I must, if a God exists, meet it on those terms.



Meanwhile, thanks for the support on my part. I doubt if many here would accept me as a fellow traveler toward heaven based upon their faith.



Hope you are well and happy, as well.

Hi Allen.



See...you felt God's presence when you were an atheist...an atheist, for Pete's sake! You never doubted God since. I never felt God's presence when I was a Christian.



BTW, accepting Darwin's evolutionary theory is not atheist making.



gotta split..



hope you too are well and safe and happy....what weather, huh?



later..

Actually, the biggest risk takers are those who believe and talk the talk but don't walk the walk. God will judge fairly. An atheist may have a chance since God may not have called him or her in this life.

People die every hour, yet so far time and existence as we humans comprehend it marches on. In the here and now, it seems many folks passing on would like to be remembered by someone, surely having done something that mattered to someone else. So it is many of us seek to leave memories among our survivors. In other words, among us humans there is even sometimes an obsession to leave a legacy, maybe statues and paintings, maybe a mention in some book.

I am responding to the word "nothingness" in the op (opening post). At the present time there is no such thing as that. Perhaps it is being assumed that time will end, existence will end, and there will be nothing at all? In that case the sum total of human existence would come to naught, adding up to a big zero. It wouldn't have mattered whether we existed or not. There would be nothing to remember us, nothing to be accountable for.

That defies the laws of physics. Not one particle of matter has ever been reduced to "nothing". It might get reduced into parts and scattered, but mass/energy can't disappear into "nothingness". If it could it would surely have happened already, with nobody left to tell about it.

Is anyone at all "safe" upon entering "nothingness"? I think that would qualify as a true oxymoron, since there would be no value for safety in nothingness. Safe from what? Nothing threatening? In that case even the Christian would not experience "safety", but would have lived "the way" in vain. It wouldn't matter how the Christian believed or lived, or the atheist.

Assuming none of us wish to speculate a future devoid of the laws of physics, let me press on. If there is no consequence for an action, there is no true "risk".

That's my opinion in response to the op.

God's word states emphatically the Christian doesn't need to ponder "nothingness" due to a promise from Jesus in John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Jesus alone compared to world religions confirmed there is a non-stop life that lasts even beyond time, should it ever stop. So it is that this question is laid heavily in the laps of the atheists alone. Yes, you might find some other religion pointing to some form of "consciousness", but not an eternal life with the total values of that which is promised from God.

Jim
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Be fishers of men

Ken, would a "god" that can't find a way to point humans to him be a real god? Some "gods" keep humans fixed on their images through idols without printed/written words, but once the idols are lost or forgotten, so are the "gods" they stand for. People have sought to contact deity ever since the first human comprehended deity. To not pray in seeking deity would leave man equal to apes and worms, unable to demonstrably express any desire to communicate with any god. Praying is a great step toward contacting the real God. He answers prayer, and has appeared to people apart from through items made of stone, wood or metal. It would appear highly logical to stop praying to anything that never responds in a way that changes ones life. Think about it. Man says to neighbor "I been praying to that round rock over there ever since I can remember, but I can't see any benefit." Wouldn't you want to ask "Why pray to it, then? Why not try praying to that tree, and if that doesn't make contact, try to a cloud? Or how about in the dark closet, nothing in sight? Eventually, surely, you would get close enough to the real living God to get some response."

The Bible provides clear instructions as to how to communicate with the only God that wants a father/son-daughter type relationship with people. No other religion presents a divine relationship like that. Matthew 6:6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Jim
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Be fishers of men

Gary came back with a good response. Ken, the Bible describes the living God with statistical proof of Him and what is written there, many prophecies fulfilled in great detail. The odds against random fulfillment are beyond our ability to number. The other religions lack true prophecies. A reason for that is by putting prophecies into a message, the message becomes subject to severe judgment based on truthfulness of the prophecies. If some religious manual leaves out concise statements concerning the near/far future, it is then subject to logical abandonment, having no tests as to validity of any promises. If all the promises are reserved for the eternal future, then how could anyone judge the probability of such promises coming to pass? The Bible alone stands up to any conceivable test for integrity.

The living God has put His integrity on the line many times, speaking through holy men of old, establishing Earth's future this side of eternity. Most of what was recorded of them has already been witnessed, a matter of world history.

Jim
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Be fishers of men

Paul B wrote "A lukewarm christian may be in more trouble than an atheist" I disagree. According to Jesus, the Judgment will mostly hinge on one factor. Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The big issue: Does Jesus know you? If not, regardless of what a person thinks they know now, it had better be part of what makes you known to Jesus as a friend of His.

Jim
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No that's why I say there are no real Gods.

All of the Gods I am familiar with have printed words. There are a few images such as cruxifexes, pictures of Jesus, etc but most have written words.

Is this just your opinion or do you have something to back it up?

why cant he just appear to us in a way that we recognize?

I agree; that's why I quit praying to the GOd of the bible; it doesn't work

Actually for me I just quit praying at all.

I tried praying according to the instructions; it doesn't work. I also think the God of the bible has more of a pet master relationship with his subjects rather than a father/son relationship (assuming this God actualy existed

Ken

Hi Kenny :

Good to see you posting after all this time. Where have you been?

why cant he just appear to us in a way that we recognize?

According to scripture, He did, in the form of a man called Jesus of Nazareth. God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; and he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Maybe you don't find that a satisfying answer because you are taken so much with the notion that a 'God' needs to be rather more than just a human being, if they want to be considered 'Deity'. Jesus is a bit of a disappointment to those who want their 'Gods' to be spectacularly super-human.

that's why I quit praying to the GOd of the bible; it doesn't work

Maybe you didn't do it right. I'm currently trying to learn navigation at sea. I realize however that certain principles must be followed before I can expect to get accurate results. The same may be true of 'prayer'. It is more than just a 'Father Christmas list' to God which can be declared 'useless' if the 'requested gifts' don't arrive when expected.

Actually for me I just quit praying at all.

Then you will never knowingly have a prayer answered, will you. If you don't ever buy a Lottery Ticket you can't complain that you have never won. If you keep on praying, at least your contention that prayer does not work is validated by your experience. If you don't pray however, you cannot in all honesty say that it does not work.

I tried praying according to the instructions; it doesn't work. I also think the God of the bible has more of a pet master relationship with his subjects rather than a father/son relationship (assuming this God actualy existed

What instructions? Did you get walking, talking or breathing 'instructions' when you were a baby?

If God exists as it is claimed in scripture, then you and I and everyone is 'immersed' in God and God exists within us like the words in a seaside rock candy. He knows our every thought before we even know it ourselves. Every thought and desire, conscious and unconscious are a component part of the continuum of creation and intimately known and experienced by God, within whom 'We live and move and have our being'.

You have been looking for 'Someone up there' when you should have been searching for something within yourself. Learning to live responsibly with that, is getting to know God. Prayer is respiration of the heart and mind.

As to the 'pet' relationship. My dog was never so happy as when I picked up her lead and said, "Walkies". What would you prefer; the freedom to be a solitary, maverick stray, alienated from your creator, or the security and companionship of a real relationship, however 'unequal' it might appear to us.

Regards Chris.

Ken, welcome back and thank you for reopening this thread. I very much appreciate you sharing your feelings and experiences here because I am sure other have felt or do often feel the same.

Just a little testimony, my daddy died from lung cancer (smoking) when I was four years old. I had been taken to church and heard about "our Father which art in heaven", so from that time on I talked to my "Daddy" in heaven. It was several years before I learned that "our Father" referred to God and not my daddy.

Now I am old and I still talk to my Daddy in heaven, but now I understand that it is God the Father to whom I am speaking. I don't know how many of my prayers He has answered. I'm sure there have been a lot. One that has not yet been answered and that I am waiting for is for two of my sons to be "saved". I heard from the Lord about thirty years ago. He said, "Don't worry about your boys, don't you know they will be with you in Paradise." Like I said, it has been about thirty years and they show no signs of leaving their lifesyles. But I have never doubted that they will be with me for eternity. God does not work in our ways or our timing. That does not mean He doesn't work.

Why not give Him a second chance without setting up boundries within which he has to work. Give Him the freedom to work in His time and in His way, as He is going to anyway. Just reach out to Him and give Him another chance.
Blessings ~ Sarah

Chris... did you really say "Walkies" to your dog??? !!!
Somehow I just can't picture that! lolol
Blessings ~ Sarah

Thank-you For about a year I haven’t been able to get on the site. I thought it closed down so I gave up on trying; I only found it this time by accident.


The problem with Jesus is he never wrote anything down so the only thing we know of him is what other people claimed he said. As I am sure you know, the claims differ from person to person; those who wrote the books that eventually became the bible claimed he is the messiah/son of God,but according to those who wrote some of the Gnostic gospels, or even the Holy Koran; he never even made such claims. So what you believe about Jesus depends upon who you choose to believe; now if God were to communicated with me in a way that I recognize, I would know who to believe.

Why must something as important as communication withGod be something you gotta do right? Why can’t a person with a sincere heartfind him even if even if ignorance prevents him from doing it right?
During my Christian years when I was trying to findGod, I spent 8 years trying to find him. If you are human and you try somethingover and over again without any results, eventually you give up. I’m only human
Exactly how do you search for something withinyourself?
As to the 'pet' relationship. My dog was never so happy as when I picked up her lead and said, "Walkies". What would you prefer; the freedom to be a solitary, maverick stray, alienated from your creator, or the security and companionship of a real relationship, however 'unequal' it might appear to us.

Regards Chris.[/quote]

A stray dog unable to find his creator doesn’t have much of a choice does he.

Kenny :

A stray dog unable to find his creator doesn’t have much of a choice does he?

Perhaps you are out of earshot. If you come when He calls, you are no longer a 'stray'.

"I have swept away your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like mist;
return to me, for I have redeemed you."

I spent 8 years trying to find him.

What for? Why? For what reason?

(Did you really want to 'find him' so as to 'obey him', or just to satisfy yourself he does not actually exist.)

Think about it !

"He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?"

Are you perhaps expecting God to personally give you a reason you should do that, before you deign to comply?
If you are already doing it, why do you want 'to find Him'? He is already with you!

You shall love the Lord your God wholeheartedly with enthusiasm.
You shall love you neighbor as yourself.

There is no better way than this, to live.

Do some good in the world man, but for God's sake don't become 'religious'. That's the last thing God wants.

Regards Chris.

The reason I spend 8 years trying to find God is because atthat time I was Christian and I wanted to get saved. After 8 years of trying I eventually gave upwhich eventually led to me doubting even the existence of God.

Why do you have such a problem with religion?



Ken

Kenny :

at that time I was Christian and I wanted to get saved.

This sound to me to be a confused and ambiguous sentence. If you were a ‘Christian’, surely you were already ‘saved’. Being ‘saved’ has nothing to do with any effort or action on your part. Being ‘saved’ has entirely been arranged and provided for you already by God, through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There was nothing you could do to stop that happening in history, so ‘ipso facto’ :

“If while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received, (past tense), our reconciliation.” Rom 5:10-11

Paul is speaking here of the reconciliation of God to the entire human race at enmity with him, through the death of God's Son. The reconciliation was none of our doing but entirely his.

There is nothing you can DO to obtain salvation. It is a gift from God that you either accept or reject.

"In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us (believers), the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." 2 Cor. 5:19-20 There you have it again.

You either accept that, if God exists, he loves you enough to provide for your salvation even before you knew of it. Or you don’t accept it, (but you can't negate it, because according to scripture it is a fact of history). It’s your choice. And since there is no absolute proof either way, what will you lose by just accepting it?

I ask this question seriously. What do you really have that you would lose by believing rather than doubting, that God has already 'saved' you?

Since you say God has not made his existence undeniably obvious to you. In all fairness you cannot therefore be held responsible by God for having an open mind about his possible nonexistence.

So if he exists, (and he might), and if God deemed our ‘salvation’ essential to his purposes, since you have no irrefutable evidence of God's non-existence, what reason do you have to doubt that God can and would provide for the full and free salvation of all he has created, including yourself?

After 8 years of trying I eventually gave up

Trying to what?

Trying to do what other ‘believers’ demanded of you?

No one should know better than you what your creator requires of you. Don't let them pretend they know better.

Trying to believe that you needed to do ‘nothing whatever’ to obtain God’s undeserved favor, (justification)?

That is a humbling thought and might lead one to make an appropriately grateful response.

Trying to avoid any obligation to ‘learn from God and love your neighbour?’

Believing is as easy as falling off a log. Praying and freely opening your conscience to God, then allowing Him to ‘direct your paths’, is not so easy. Perhaps that second part was what you were really struggling with within. We're all afraid we might have to amend our selfish ways.

Why do you have such a problem with religion?

I don’t. I know how to keep it in it’s place.

At it’s best ‘religion’ can inspire people to be ‘better’ people than they otherwise would have been.
At it’s worst ‘religion’ can convince people that even their ‘worst’ is not only ‘justifiable’ but even necessary to please their god.

If it is allowed to become master instead of servant, religion is a snare and a dangerous delusion.

Religion is sometimes a good ‘beginning’ but is only a ‘means to an end’, not an end in itself.

Becoming more ‘Christlike’ should be our aim and end, in life. Not becoming more ‘religious’.

Regards Chris.

Chris, this was an awesome post. Look what God has done... brought us into total agreement!!! Good job!
I especially like this sentence, "I ask this question seriously. What do you really have that you would lose by believing rather than doubting".

Thanks for being here!
Blessings ~ Sarah