bizrsc1 wrote:
Well, my view on all this is settled, so I will end my portion of the debate. Thanks!Wasn't it you who said this a few posts ago?
Sep 15, 2012, 3:48 AM
User (133 posts)
Sep 15, 2012, 3:48 AM
Post #76 of 90
Views: 1633
Wasn't it you who said this a few posts ago?
Sep 15, 2012, 4:29 AM
Veteran (2599 posts)
Sep 15, 2012, 4:29 AM
Post #77 of 90
Views: 1632
bizrsc1 :
Eh, nope, don't think so... I'm pretty biblically literate...
Biblically literate, yes. But unspecific when citing which Biblical character called 'John' you were referring to.
You are of course right concerning John The Baptist but you did not originally specify that the John you referred to was ‘The Baptist’, you just said ‘John’ without specifying which John you meant. There are many ‘Johns’ in the Bible.
These misunderstandings often crop up when scripture is being discussed and interpreted. When you referred to just ‘John’ I wrongly assumed you meant John the Evangelist, commonly thought to have written John’s Gospel, letters 1, 2, 3 John and Revelation.
Regarding the beheading of James :
About that time Herod the king laid violent hands upon some who belonged to the church. He killed James the brother of John with the sword; and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. Acts 12:1-3
Regarding the rumours of John’s immortality or long life :
The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple (John), was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
This is the disciple (John), who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. John 21:23-24
Obviously written by an eyewitness who survived to write the Gospel named after him, thought by many to be the last of the four canonical Gospels written.
It just goes to show though how two different statements can both be correct when based upon different underlying assumptions.
All the more important that 'assumptions' underlying eschatological predictions and speculation about future events should be examined thoroughly and teased out before they become accepted as historically established Christian doctrine.
Regards Chris.
Eh, nope, don't think so... I'm pretty biblically literate...
Biblically literate, yes. But unspecific when citing which Biblical character called 'John' you were referring to.
You are of course right concerning John The Baptist but you did not originally specify that the John you referred to was ‘The Baptist’, you just said ‘John’ without specifying which John you meant. There are many ‘Johns’ in the Bible.
These misunderstandings often crop up when scripture is being discussed and interpreted. When you referred to just ‘John’ I wrongly assumed you meant John the Evangelist, commonly thought to have written John’s Gospel, letters 1, 2, 3 John and Revelation.
Regarding the beheading of James :
About that time Herod the king laid violent hands upon some who belonged to the church. He killed James the brother of John with the sword; and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. Acts 12:1-3
Regarding the rumours of John’s immortality or long life :
The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple (John), was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
This is the disciple (John), who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. John 21:23-24
Obviously written by an eyewitness who survived to write the Gospel named after him, thought by many to be the last of the four canonical Gospels written.
It just goes to show though how two different statements can both be correct when based upon different underlying assumptions.
All the more important that 'assumptions' underlying eschatological predictions and speculation about future events should be examined thoroughly and teased out before they become accepted as historically established Christian doctrine.
Regards Chris.
Sep 15, 2012, 2:10 PM
Veteran (2599 posts)
Sep 15, 2012, 2:10 PM
Post #80 of 90
Views: 1598
bizrsc1 :
Under your reasoning, she should not only submit . . . . . .
On only the very brief communication we have had with one another you really don’t know what my ‘reasoning’ is on these matters. I merely quoted some teachings of our Master which you seem to have some difficulty with.
Reasoning as you do, America and Britain would STILL be okay with SLAVERY.
I can assure you I am opposed to slavery, just I am also opposed to domestic abuse. In fact my own country was first to abolish slavery and declared it illegal many years before your own did. The American Bill of Rights was drawn up by at least two slave owners who continued to keep their slaves. There’s hypocrisy for you.
Again, following your reasoning, he ought never to have asserted such rights,
Again I have to point out to you that you really don’t know me well enough to know what my reasoning actually is on these matters. If the verses I quoted pose a problem for you, you need to take them up with Jesus yourself. I got answers and no doubt so will you. I will say however that Jesus was not simply ‘suggesting’ we do these things. They are an integral part of his requirement for becoming and staying a disciple of His Way.
Violence does not end violence. It extends and prolongs it, until the time that someone has the vision and courage to refuse to retaliate. It is never a simple business opposing evil but there are often alternatives more effective at ending violent confrontation than a singular desire to eradicate all opposition, if necessary even with violence.
In my prayers, I asked God to give America merciful discipline rather than God's judgment and a lot of hurricanes and storms happened that killed very few people, yet property was attacked and destroying showing people that God values people over material things. God did all of that.
“God did all of that . . .”. You may have convinced yourself of that but it is no more than your personal opinion. You are not privy to every action of God. I suspect God neither consulted with you or informed you of His intentions. You may even be misrepresenting Him by attributing natural disasters entirely to His actions.
There is something of the Hindu philosophy about the idea that the God’s, (or God), visits rightly deserved karma upon the victims of natural disasters. It certainly does not seem to be a very compassionate theological theory. Considering most of the victims of Katrina were poor blacks who had very little valuable property, how did you feel about your Government compensating the uninsured out of your tax dollars? Two years later there were still people homeless over there. Might many ultra conservatives have been tempted to close their pockets to the victims thinking ‘they must have deserved it’? ‘God taught them a lesson’.
In my humble opinion, that would not be a compassionate or ‘Christian’ response.
The most obvious objection I have to the ‘Rapture’ hysteria in the USA is it’s tendency to promote an “Us and Them” mentality. It is all about being ‘of the chosen’ who will be ‘beamed up’, as opposed to being ‘of the rejected’ who will remain. We are supposed to be reaching the world with the Gospel of Reconciliation, not ‘corralling the blessed’ ready for a ‘beaming up’.
Considering the Ecological mess the human race is making of The World, America and now China competing with each other to be the greatest contributor to global warming, I think it only fair that the majority of the population of The USA do not deserve to be ‘raptured’ but should be made to stay behind and clean up the mess they have been making of God’s planet before being allowed to leave.
I think it highly likely that the natural disasters the USA has recently been suffering are merely a precursor to the changes in climate brought about (in part), by the USA’s own economic and ecological policies over the last 15 decades. You ain’t seen nothin yet. This year the Summertime Arctic Sea Ice area has reached the smallest it has ever been since records began and the Antarctic Ice shelves continue to shrink at an unprecedented rate.
The notion that “Good Christian Americans” will escape the disastrous consequences of their nation's profligate and irresponsible squandering of natural resources, by ‘flying away to the sky’, fills me with woe for the decimated wreck of a planet they will carelessly be ‘leaving behind’, more like 'rats leaving a sinking ship'.
Isaiah 24:5 - 10 comes to mind. I guess you all have a foretaste of this in the USA with all those mortgage foreclosures. (see verse 10).
5 The earth lies polluted
under its inhabitants;
for they have transgressed the laws,
violated the statutes,
broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse devours the earth,
and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt;
therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched,
and few men are left.
7 The wine mourns,
the vine languishes,
all the merry- hearted sigh.
8 The mirth of the timbrels is stilled,
the noise of the jubilant has ceased,
the mirth of the lyre is stilled.
9 No more do they drink wine with singing;
strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10 The city of chaos is broken down,
every house is shut up so that none can enter.
Regards Chris.
Under your reasoning, she should not only submit . . . . . .
On only the very brief communication we have had with one another you really don’t know what my ‘reasoning’ is on these matters. I merely quoted some teachings of our Master which you seem to have some difficulty with.
Reasoning as you do, America and Britain would STILL be okay with SLAVERY.
I can assure you I am opposed to slavery, just I am also opposed to domestic abuse. In fact my own country was first to abolish slavery and declared it illegal many years before your own did. The American Bill of Rights was drawn up by at least two slave owners who continued to keep their slaves. There’s hypocrisy for you.
Again, following your reasoning, he ought never to have asserted such rights,
Again I have to point out to you that you really don’t know me well enough to know what my reasoning actually is on these matters. If the verses I quoted pose a problem for you, you need to take them up with Jesus yourself. I got answers and no doubt so will you. I will say however that Jesus was not simply ‘suggesting’ we do these things. They are an integral part of his requirement for becoming and staying a disciple of His Way.
Violence does not end violence. It extends and prolongs it, until the time that someone has the vision and courage to refuse to retaliate. It is never a simple business opposing evil but there are often alternatives more effective at ending violent confrontation than a singular desire to eradicate all opposition, if necessary even with violence.
In my prayers, I asked God to give America merciful discipline rather than God's judgment and a lot of hurricanes and storms happened that killed very few people, yet property was attacked and destroying showing people that God values people over material things. God did all of that.
“God did all of that . . .”. You may have convinced yourself of that but it is no more than your personal opinion. You are not privy to every action of God. I suspect God neither consulted with you or informed you of His intentions. You may even be misrepresenting Him by attributing natural disasters entirely to His actions.
There is something of the Hindu philosophy about the idea that the God’s, (or God), visits rightly deserved karma upon the victims of natural disasters. It certainly does not seem to be a very compassionate theological theory. Considering most of the victims of Katrina were poor blacks who had very little valuable property, how did you feel about your Government compensating the uninsured out of your tax dollars? Two years later there were still people homeless over there. Might many ultra conservatives have been tempted to close their pockets to the victims thinking ‘they must have deserved it’? ‘God taught them a lesson’.
In my humble opinion, that would not be a compassionate or ‘Christian’ response.
The most obvious objection I have to the ‘Rapture’ hysteria in the USA is it’s tendency to promote an “Us and Them” mentality. It is all about being ‘of the chosen’ who will be ‘beamed up’, as opposed to being ‘of the rejected’ who will remain. We are supposed to be reaching the world with the Gospel of Reconciliation, not ‘corralling the blessed’ ready for a ‘beaming up’.
Considering the Ecological mess the human race is making of The World, America and now China competing with each other to be the greatest contributor to global warming, I think it only fair that the majority of the population of The USA do not deserve to be ‘raptured’ but should be made to stay behind and clean up the mess they have been making of God’s planet before being allowed to leave.
I think it highly likely that the natural disasters the USA has recently been suffering are merely a precursor to the changes in climate brought about (in part), by the USA’s own economic and ecological policies over the last 15 decades. You ain’t seen nothin yet. This year the Summertime Arctic Sea Ice area has reached the smallest it has ever been since records began and the Antarctic Ice shelves continue to shrink at an unprecedented rate.
The notion that “Good Christian Americans” will escape the disastrous consequences of their nation's profligate and irresponsible squandering of natural resources, by ‘flying away to the sky’, fills me with woe for the decimated wreck of a planet they will carelessly be ‘leaving behind’, more like 'rats leaving a sinking ship'.
Isaiah 24:5 - 10 comes to mind. I guess you all have a foretaste of this in the USA with all those mortgage foreclosures. (see verse 10).
5 The earth lies polluted
under its inhabitants;
for they have transgressed the laws,
violated the statutes,
broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse devours the earth,
and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt;
therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched,
and few men are left.
7 The wine mourns,
the vine languishes,
all the merry- hearted sigh.
8 The mirth of the timbrels is stilled,
the noise of the jubilant has ceased,
the mirth of the lyre is stilled.
9 No more do they drink wine with singing;
strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10 The city of chaos is broken down,
every house is shut up so that none can enter.
Regards Chris.
Sep 15, 2012, 7:28 PM
Novice (29 posts)
Sep 15, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #81 of 90
Views: 1557
It seems to me you have already explained your reasoning. Who's doing violence here at all?? Not me. Not anyone at this point, so all your inferences are totally whacked. And I think there are lots of foreclosures in the UK at this point as well. The purpose of having a weapon in your house is NOT to use it. I already explained that, but obviously the point is entirely lost on you.
Sep 16, 2012, 4:51 AM
Veteran (2599 posts)
Sep 16, 2012, 4:51 AM
Post #82 of 90
Views: 1485
bizrsc1 :
It seems to me you have already explained your reasoning.
That would be more because you perceive the scripture I have quoted to be critical of your hearts desire, than because you actually know what my reasoning is. It would seem that your hearts desire is for justice. That might be because you have suffered injustice, a therefore understandable response. God is of course just, but he also calls us to be compassionate because God is also compassionate. The deal is: (our sins are forgiven - so we forgive others.)
Who's doing violence here at all?? Not me. Not anyone at this point, so all your inferences are totally whacked.
I must apologize if you inferred from anything I have written, that there was any implication on my part that you were in any way a violent person. I had formed no such impression and intended no such accusation. I don't know if I can state that any more clearly.
And I think there are lots of foreclosures in the UK at this point as well.
Indeed there are but at least we have a welfare state to provide some sort of safety net so that it is not always the poor who bear the brunt of economic incompetence or fiscal dishonesty as was the case with Freddy Mac and Fanny May etc..
The purpose of having a weapon in your house is NOT to use it. I already explained that, but obviously the point is entirely lost on you.
The purpose of having a weapon in your house is to use it whenever you judge it's use to be necessary in the cause of protecting your property and your life. In a society in which firearms are freely available to all and in shocking abundance, use of a weapon might be deemed necessary in certain circumstances. I presume that is the very reason your law allows them.
No sensible person owns an operable weapon that they intend never to use. The intention therefore is to use it either legitimately purely for sport or also in self defense if needed. It is a dishonest self delusion to pretend otherwise.
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:35-36
Are the majority of 'normal right wing, gun toting Christians' in the USA, really ready for a 'rapture'? There might be a nasty surprise in store for those who 'think' they should qualify for 'lift off'.
Regards Chris.
It seems to me you have already explained your reasoning.
That would be more because you perceive the scripture I have quoted to be critical of your hearts desire, than because you actually know what my reasoning is. It would seem that your hearts desire is for justice. That might be because you have suffered injustice, a therefore understandable response. God is of course just, but he also calls us to be compassionate because God is also compassionate. The deal is: (our sins are forgiven - so we forgive others.)
Who's doing violence here at all?? Not me. Not anyone at this point, so all your inferences are totally whacked.
I must apologize if you inferred from anything I have written, that there was any implication on my part that you were in any way a violent person. I had formed no such impression and intended no such accusation. I don't know if I can state that any more clearly.
And I think there are lots of foreclosures in the UK at this point as well.
Indeed there are but at least we have a welfare state to provide some sort of safety net so that it is not always the poor who bear the brunt of economic incompetence or fiscal dishonesty as was the case with Freddy Mac and Fanny May etc..
The purpose of having a weapon in your house is NOT to use it. I already explained that, but obviously the point is entirely lost on you.
The purpose of having a weapon in your house is to use it whenever you judge it's use to be necessary in the cause of protecting your property and your life. In a society in which firearms are freely available to all and in shocking abundance, use of a weapon might be deemed necessary in certain circumstances. I presume that is the very reason your law allows them.
No sensible person owns an operable weapon that they intend never to use. The intention therefore is to use it either legitimately purely for sport or also in self defense if needed. It is a dishonest self delusion to pretend otherwise.
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:35-36
Are the majority of 'normal right wing, gun toting Christians' in the USA, really ready for a 'rapture'? There might be a nasty surprise in store for those who 'think' they should qualify for 'lift off'.
Regards Chris.
Sep 18, 2012, 4:20 PM
Novice (29 posts)
Sep 18, 2012, 4:20 PM
Post #83 of 90
Views: 1376
Yes, Christians can ask for justice, (the parable of the woman and the unjust judge), fight for justice, and watch God do justice on their behalf. God has done this for me many times and has allowed me to be angry about injustices done against me and yet receive answers to my prayers for justice.
My landlord and neighbor must agree with your view, however. You would probably be quite pleased with their reaction. We are now having to apologize for having offended our neighbors and the landlord even though they vandalized our stuff and harassed us and have made life very difficult for my entire family. We have been told we must apologize or we must move. And we were told by our landlord that we have offended our entire neighborhood as well.
So there you go. I've been in a lot of these mob-type situations. In not one of them have I hardly spoken to most of the people involved, and the interactions with all the other people have been only positive on my part. But people like being in mobs, they like scapegoats and they like power. They love to believe their lives are made better by hating you.
Unfortunately, my health, emotional and physical, suffers severely under such conditions. In the 12 year stalking incident, I became agoraphobic to a very severe degree, housebound, suffered insomnia so severe that for 5-6 years I hardly slept at all, and, of course, depression and also severe fibromyalgia. Some of that is beginning to happen now as well.
You and so many others think I should just submit, and submit more. It is never enough. You would tell me I should have no anger, no nothing. When you are being stalked and attacked, and now is not very different, as the neighbors, now with the landlord solidly on their side, object severely to not just any noise at all from our side of the house, but to us ever being outside when they are, and even to us ever looking out our windows to see who is out there. So how then is life even possible???
And in your view, I just should allow myself to totally close up, be depressed and maybe even become clinically depressed, all so I can "love until it hurts."
I watched a family member of mine do just that and it was a terrible thing to witness and to go through, even as an observer. I almost was like that as a child. I cannot see that this is what God insists upon. I am sorry that I cannot agree you with you on so much.
I am afraid you come across to me in a very uninformed manner, to say the least.
Why don't you just apply your own thinking to your own self and situation, and stop trying to advise others and pretend that you know better than how they themselves are being led by the Lord to deal with things.
This discussion is over for me. I do not want a response and I do not agree with you at all.
My landlord and neighbor must agree with your view, however. You would probably be quite pleased with their reaction. We are now having to apologize for having offended our neighbors and the landlord even though they vandalized our stuff and harassed us and have made life very difficult for my entire family. We have been told we must apologize or we must move. And we were told by our landlord that we have offended our entire neighborhood as well.
So there you go. I've been in a lot of these mob-type situations. In not one of them have I hardly spoken to most of the people involved, and the interactions with all the other people have been only positive on my part. But people like being in mobs, they like scapegoats and they like power. They love to believe their lives are made better by hating you.
Unfortunately, my health, emotional and physical, suffers severely under such conditions. In the 12 year stalking incident, I became agoraphobic to a very severe degree, housebound, suffered insomnia so severe that for 5-6 years I hardly slept at all, and, of course, depression and also severe fibromyalgia. Some of that is beginning to happen now as well.
You and so many others think I should just submit, and submit more. It is never enough. You would tell me I should have no anger, no nothing. When you are being stalked and attacked, and now is not very different, as the neighbors, now with the landlord solidly on their side, object severely to not just any noise at all from our side of the house, but to us ever being outside when they are, and even to us ever looking out our windows to see who is out there. So how then is life even possible???
And in your view, I just should allow myself to totally close up, be depressed and maybe even become clinically depressed, all so I can "love until it hurts."
I watched a family member of mine do just that and it was a terrible thing to witness and to go through, even as an observer. I almost was like that as a child. I cannot see that this is what God insists upon. I am sorry that I cannot agree you with you on so much.
I am afraid you come across to me in a very uninformed manner, to say the least.
Why don't you just apply your own thinking to your own self and situation, and stop trying to advise others and pretend that you know better than how they themselves are being led by the Lord to deal with things.
This discussion is over for me. I do not want a response and I do not agree with you at all.
Sep 19, 2012, 9:44 AM
Veteran (2599 posts)
Sep 19, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #84 of 90
Views: 1351
bizrsc1 :
If what I have written has offended you, you have my appology.
Nothing I have said was intended for you personally in your present situation.
The thread is about expectations of a rapture and what I have written was addressed to anyone who has views on that subject and issues which might affect our worthyness to be included in it, should it be a reality.
Regarding your personal problems, I sympathise with you but do not know anywhere near enough to advise or take sides in your or anyone elses support.
Have you tried getting your pastor or a mutually respected friend or neighbour to sort these problem out for you. If that has failed then I would have thought that leaving a neighbourhood, such as you describe to us, would be a great relief to you. Do you want us at Praize to pray for you to find more amenable neighbours in a nicer area of town?
Regards Chris.
If what I have written has offended you, you have my appology.
Nothing I have said was intended for you personally in your present situation.
The thread is about expectations of a rapture and what I have written was addressed to anyone who has views on that subject and issues which might affect our worthyness to be included in it, should it be a reality.
Regarding your personal problems, I sympathise with you but do not know anywhere near enough to advise or take sides in your or anyone elses support.
Have you tried getting your pastor or a mutually respected friend or neighbour to sort these problem out for you. If that has failed then I would have thought that leaving a neighbourhood, such as you describe to us, would be a great relief to you. Do you want us at Praize to pray for you to find more amenable neighbours in a nicer area of town?
Regards Chris.
Sep 21, 2012, 10:07 PM
Veteran (3139 posts)
Sep 21, 2012, 10:07 PM
Post #85 of 90
Views: 1219
Hey Chris:
Am I losing it....or did my response to you.....and your reply to it....completely disappear?
Sarah says she didn't delete them....yet they seem to have vanished! Ideas?
Blessings,
Am I losing it....or did my response to you.....and your reply to it....completely disappear?
Sarah says she didn't delete them....yet they seem to have vanished! Ideas?
Blessings,
Sep 22, 2012, 1:12 AM
Veteran (2599 posts)
Sep 22, 2012, 1:12 AM
Post #86 of 90
Views: 1212
sojourner :
You didn't imagine it. I remember Sarah saying though that it was so off topic it was being moved to a new thread. It is just that the posts didn't make it through the transfer process perhaps.
I'm just hoping that they didn't 'disappear' for contradicting the rapture hypothesis.
Best Regards etc. Chris.
You didn't imagine it. I remember Sarah saying though that it was so off topic it was being moved to a new thread. It is just that the posts didn't make it through the transfer process perhaps.
I'm just hoping that they didn't 'disappear' for contradicting the rapture hypothesis.
Best Regards etc. Chris.
Sep 22, 2012, 8:58 AM
Veteran / Moderator (2571 posts)
Sep 22, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #87 of 90
Views: 1190
I don't know! I don't know! I don't know! I'm SO confused!
I thought they were still here. NO?
Chris, you put yours in the new thread... Walt, do you have a copy of yours?
Blessings ~ Sarah
I thought they were still here. NO?
Chris, you put yours in the new thread... Walt, do you have a copy of yours?
Blessings ~ Sarah
Sep 22, 2012, 11:04 AM
Veteran (3139 posts)
Sep 22, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #88 of 90
Views: 1177
praizeop2 wrote:
I don't know! I don't know! I don't know! I'm SO confused! I thought they were still here. NO? Walt, do you have a copy of yours?
While I DID partially follow the preceding 'rabbit trail'.....I ALSO addressed the OP.
Blessings,
Sep 22, 2012, 3:30 PM
Veteran (2599 posts)
Sep 22, 2012, 3:30 PM
Post #89 of 90
Views: 1155
Sarah :
Stay cool - we are all confused. First - Have no fear, you are in no need of forgiveness. We understand and allow for human frailty.
I usually have a copy of what I post on my word processor, but in this case I must have written it directly into 'praize'. I posted an entirely new and different post in the new thread with no references to 'rapture'.
I'm afraid unless you have records of the original posts in the 'rapture' thread they are now in 'cyber heaven' and have passed over into the 'great data beyond' of which we know so little.
If only they had been 'saved'. At least they will not be tortured for eternity though, I can't believe the 'great data judge of cyber space' would be that cruel.
Regards Chris.
Stay cool - we are all confused. First - Have no fear, you are in no need of forgiveness. We understand and allow for human frailty.
I usually have a copy of what I post on my word processor, but in this case I must have written it directly into 'praize'. I posted an entirely new and different post in the new thread with no references to 'rapture'.
I'm afraid unless you have records of the original posts in the 'rapture' thread they are now in 'cyber heaven' and have passed over into the 'great data beyond' of which we know so little.
If only they had been 'saved'. At least they will not be tortured for eternity though, I can't believe the 'great data judge of cyber space' would be that cruel.
Regards Chris.
Sep 22, 2012, 7:29 PM
Veteran (3139 posts)
Sep 22, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #90 of 90
Views: 1133
rdrcofe wrote:
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:35-36"Quote:
Quote:"Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."Now, Chris....shame on you....and you a 'Vicar' and all that too! (
) That passage has nothing to do with one availing oneself of whatever means the law allows to defend oneself....whether through legal means OR physical means.....when faced with physical threats. The entire context begins with Jesus beginning to teach the people that He needs to suffer, be rejected, killed, and resurrected back to life. When Peter attempts to rebuke Him....is when He begins THIS discourse. It is ALL about individuals....and their choice to become followers of Jesus....or not. Those who do, risk 'losing' their physical lives (ie; martyrdom, as he's teaching them that He will)...but they 'gain' life...spiritual/eternal life not....'lose' their lives...ie; souls. Those who, for fear of suffering....choose NOT to follow Him....might gain the 'whole world'....but they'll lose their soul. Since elsewhere, He tells His followers to arm themselves...and since neither He, nor John the Baptist (when speaking to soldiers) nor Paul....EVER admonishes them not to defend their own lives (Paul, on more than one occasion, availed himself of not only Roman laws to avoid suffering, but also pitted Jewish groups against each other by dissimulating or playing a bit fast and loose with the truth....in order to extricate himself from a physically threatening situation.)
Quote:
Quote:"Are the majority of 'normal right wing, gun toting Christians' in the USA, really ready for a 'rapture'? There might be a nasty surprise in store for those who 'think' they should qualify for 'lift off'."The reality is that ANY group...or individual...who thinks that His eternal destiny depends on his/her OWN efforts....or how 'clean' they've managed to make their 'vessel'.....is going to be sadly disappointed...when they discover that their reliance on their OWN efforts...constituted a 'fall from Grace'....thus obligating them to PERFECT obedience to God's Law...which none but Jesus has EVER managed to achieve! Thus....'gun-toting'.....or 'non-gun-toting' is relevant....what IS relevant is whether they're relying of God's GRACE, freely bestowed (undeservedly) on them....or whether they're relying on their OWN efforts to become somehow 'READY' to be deemed 'worthy' of that great cosmic elevator ride to the sky!
Blessings,
(recreated....sorta....and expanded on one of the invisible post that disappeared)
Regards Chris.[/quote]