I will definitely be outta here! I have trouble locating scripture that states that the rapture is after tribulation but, I was certain I'd read it. However, I have some aquaintences who insist that it's prior to. I just don't recall reading it that way. Am I wrong? I read the KJV. I've never really warmed to any other versions. Not for lack of trying. The farthest I'll sway to is an amplified and I rarely dig into that.
I often wondered about that one statement that not all will sleep. One post mentioned being alseep as in dead in the spirit. Is it possible that we may not be dead (physically) when we're taken? After all...if it's supposed to be a mystery, isn't it possible that Christ could do something that supernatural. Just "poof" and we disappear? I've done some studying using the Willmington's Guide to the Bible to look up some of this info, too. I was very curious. This subject fascinates me.

You have a lot of questions!
I want to recommend that you take a look at the blog of my long-time friend, Rev. Suzanne Taylor at:
http://www.praize.com/..._Of_Joel_J27176.html

She is starting a study here on Praize on the book of Joel. Perhaps you can find some answers there. I have found her studies to be very understandable and sensible. Feel free to make comments at the end of them. I know she would love to hear any questions from you or comments.
Blessings ~ Sarah
Blessings ~ Sarah

Yes there most certainly is; Will I be gone? If I am keeping myself in right standing before God, living for him, yes indeed I will...our Father knows our hearts.
Deborah Covington - Sr Pastor
Living For God Ministries

Thank you.

It has been a while since I wrote about this sort of thing however I think the context of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the particular buildings the first disciples were gawking at and the 'coming in the clouds' could be better understood by a proper translation of whatever Greek word rendered clouds to read 'atmosphere.' I feel that the idea Paul was trying to get across was 'in our physical reality.' This is because of the way he describes the first, second, and third heavens. Just my two cents.

Be Blessed

Boy! This is a subject that has been beat nearly to death on just about every Christian website there is. I used to be a member of what some call the "rapture cult". But in the last 20 years God has opened my eyes to many teachings. The only thing I will say is that there will be no rapture as it is commonly taught. If you'd like to discuss it with me PM or email me (unless the administrator wants me to share publicly what I believe God has show me). In the meantime read Rev. 20 & 21 to see what will actually happen and read Psalm 37 to see who will be "raptured".

I was raised and steeped in the premillennial theories....and, as is usually the case in things like that...ANY other view MUST be heresy...or at least 'error'. It took me a number of years to begin to see the Word as it touches on the subject...and what else it pointed to....and to see where passages twisted to support such theories....in context....meant no such thing.

I finally gave up on it all...I mean....IF the premillennialists are correct (pre-trib, that is)....then it is an incredible waste of my time, and resources, to study, pore over, argue about....things that will or will not come to pass AFTER I'm gone. I mean...IF I 'vaporlock' tonight in my sleep.....for ME.....THAT WILL BE Jesus' 'coming' for me. Each day....each hour, each minute could be my LAST...so...all that time spent in buying books, charts, prognostications, and poring over, and arguing over the same....could/should be far better spent doing what Jesus TOLD US to do in the first place....'preaching the Gospel'....advancing His Kingdom.....and being 'HIM' to each person we meet. He is no longer here physically...EXCEPT....insofar as he indwells us....WE ARE HIM....to the world. What a mess we've made of THAT!


There's a very real possibility that there will be no rapture as it is UNcommonly taught, either.
Hey....I'm a Mod here...and this IS a 'Debate Forum'....so...anything goes. (Hopefully in Christian charity, and within Praize TOS of course)

Blessings,

There are abundant proofs that it will be a Pre-Trib Rapture and then a Final Coming in Judgment. The Rapture of the Church will be public in the sense that all then living on the earth will know that something has happened, but they will not be able to explain it, much like what they heard at Pentecost. But they will be shocked and surprised because they will not be expecting it to occur.

Scripture clearly teaches that we are to PRAY that we may be found worthy to ESCAPE these things (the Tribulation), and we are exhorted to watch and to pray. We cannot ever be qualified in ourselves, but if we are constantly striving for righteousness and holiness, however imperfectly, just as Paul did, then we qualify. If instead we are committed carnal Christians without the remotest intention of being interested in righteousness, the things of God and of the Spirit, then we will most certainly be left behind.

I am glad that God never meant any of this to be confusing. You can study and study eschatology and theology and be a very mixed up person (and yes, I have an M. A. in Christian Apologetics and two and one-half years of study in on an M. Div., I have seen this happen!), or you can simply stick with the simplicity of the Gospel and see the clarity of what God says on this subject. Knowing NT Greek just adds certainty to what one studies in this regard.

Good word, Mama Bear! :) I heard so many different stories about the rapture that I decided to read the book of Revelation for myself. Now I KNOW what I believe!!!
Blessings ~ Sarah

Amen, sister, amen! H. U. G. S. (Hopefully always Understanding the Gospel in Simplicity!)

OK sojourner since you asked..............
Here is what I believe God has shown me: The next thing to occur in the order of end-times events is that Jesus will return to set up his Millennial Kingdom as Satan, his demons and the non-believers are removed from this earth. At the end of the thousand year Kingdom the Believers will be removed from the earth and Satan and his demons along with the non-believers will be returned to the earth for the three and one-half year "Great Tribulation". At the end of that time God will conduct the judgments, the believers will receive their rewards and the non-believers will be sent to Hell. God will destroy this earth and the heavens and create a New Earth and new heavens (space) and the "New Jerusalem will descend from Heaven and be suspended above the earth. Our eternal home will be the New Earth (not Heaven as we have always been taught).

hmmm.... that is the most unusual chronology that I have ever heard anyone offer... I don't think it's correct and can't see how you could derive it from Revelation... do you have any good reasoning for concluding this??

When God first told me this I asked Him what Scripture I could use to support this. He gave me Rev. 20 & 21 and Psalm 37.

chaplainbob illustrates a valid point I feel.

It seems that anyone seeking to understand and interpret eschatological apocalyptic writings (dealing with 'hidden in the future' events), brings to the written evidence their own preconceptions of what it might mean.

Many assume that when Jesus spoke of 'one being taken and the other remaining' he was implying that it would be good to be taken. This however cannot be assumed to be true. There is nothing in the context which indicates whether 'being taken' is a good or bad thing. Bob's interpretation assuming that it will be 'the wicked' which will be taken, and 'his place will be no more' is just as much a possible interpretation as those who insist it is the righteous who is 'taken' and the wicked left behind. There is nothing actually in the text itself to indicate definitely either way.

Much of the shaky doctrine regarding the so called 'Rapture' is based on some debatable interpretations of scripture. The concept is rather a new or 'modern' idea actually. It dates from the 19th century and originated among American Dispensationalists. It has caught on mostly in the USA but was not found in the early church or contained in any of the ancient Christian creeds or statements of faith. The only mention of Christ's 'return' is 'To judge the quick and the dead'.

The idea that Christians should hope to avoid persecution by being translated out of it supernaturally was not taught by the early Church Fathers. Quite the contrary in fact. We were promised by Christ himself that 'in the world we will have tribulation', not escape it. Furthermore Jesus also told us the way we should expect to exit this life and enter into the next. Exactly the same way He did. But all in God's good time. The first shall be last and the last, - first.

i.e. the first to die will be longest waiting for the resurrection, the last to die will have the shortest time to wait. The resurrection will be the resurrection of ALL, not only the 'righteous' or 'the wicked' but ALL.

Regards Chris.

Ich finde etwas anders...

"The idea that Christians should hope to avoid persecution by being translated out of it supernaturally was not taught by the early Church Fathers. Quite the contrary in fact."

Check these references:

Early Church Fathers Taught a First Rapture Before the Tribulation http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3255-Early-Church-Fathers-Taught-a-First-Rapture-Before-the-Tribulation

Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's Epistles to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

Considering first rapture according to readiness is a deeper truth (Luke 21.36; Rev. 3.10, 12.5)-as proven-you wouldn't expect a lot of early church fathers to get it. It is usually only understood and appreciated by spiritual Christians. The quotes posttribers use to argue the church fathers only taught posttrib rapture usually only deal with the fact of His return and the last trumpet resurrection. But in no way does this preclude their awareness of a first rapture of an advanced party of overcomer believers who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful. Since Matthew (24.42), Mark (13.32), Luke (21.36), Paul (1 Cor. 15.23) and John (Rev. 3.10, 6.9-11, 7.9, 11.15, 12.5, 14.1-5) all taught a first rapture according to readiness, should we not accept it?

The Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:

"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."
This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.
This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.

Summary:

Three Clear Summary Points from the Early Church Fathers' Teachings

• These early church fathers expected Christ to physically return to earth followed by a 1000 year kingdom rule on earth.
  
• By many of the writings we can see they believed in the possibility of an any moment return of Christ with some statements that resemble a pre-trib view point.
  
• Even though the early church was under heavy persecution these teachers believed there would still come a distinct time of great tribulation in the future.

Are these not Roman Catholic "Church Fathers"? I personally find many RC teachings suspect. The one true thing in your summary is that Jesus will return to set up His millennial Kingdom. At that time Satan and his demons and the non-believers will be "raptured".

Well, my view on all this is settled, so I will end my portion of the debate. Thanks!

I still think that American Christians spend far too much time 'worrying' over these questionable matters and not enough time 'loving their neighbour till it hurts'.

In any case if we are to be 'raptured' or not there is nothing we can do to hasten or stop it and little we can do without God's help to be 'found worthy'.

The whole issue seems to me to be a ploy to generate excess 'enthusiasm' and raise extra 'revenue' in large churches that lack focus on 'social responsibility' and 'patience in suffering'.

It does no hurt to believe in the possibility of a 'rapture' as long as it does not impinge detrimentally on the quality on our relationship with God and our neighbour. When it diverts attention from our duty to God and neighbour, 'in the here and now', and becomes the main focus of our evangelistic outreach, the doctrine is in danger of becoming to us, a time wasting snare and a diversionary, delusion.

Regards Chris.

Sorry, but I don't think that the Rapture issue is either questionable, nor do I have any doubt about where I stand on it. You are entitled to think/believe as you wish.

As far as love for one's neighbor is concerned, I overlooked the actions of my stalker for 12 years... that is plenty of "loving as it hurt," and it hurt very, very much.

The current incident is not just stalking or harassment, it involves a government official viciously abusing their office. We here in the U. S. view government authority differently than you do, as witnessed by the War of Independence.

God was directly involved by miracle after miracle in the founding of our country. God never ever asks us to just take everything that evil people dish out. Prophets spoke power to those claiming to be in authority on God's behalf. I am 100% certain of how God has led me in all of this and in what He has asked, and is asking me to do. So I am sorry, I simply do not agree with you on these issues at all. Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.

bizrsc1 :

I don't think that the Rapture issue is either questionable, nor do I have any doubt about where I stand on it.

You are of course entitled to hold your own opinions so long as you accept that the opinions of others are not necessarily heretical just because they differ from your own. The Inquisition was led by fervent religious people convinced of the unerring ‘righteousness’ of their own opinions.

As far as love for one's neighbor is concerned, I overlooked the actions of my stalker for 12 years... that is plenty of "loving as it hurt," and it hurt very, very much.

I appreciate that and sympathize with you. That must have been a very distressing experience. I was however speaking generally and not targeting you personally when referring to ‘loving our neighbour’. This, along with compassion, was a very basic and fundamental requirement of discipleship according to the teaching of our Master.

Too many people get fixated on time consuming and fruitless ‘rapture’ and ‘second coming’ speculation, instead of concentrating on the main task in hand.

We here in the U. S. view government authority differently than you do, as witnessed by the War of Independence.

From the evidence of history it would seem that the original ‘Tea Party’ was organized by people in disguise, who had little or no respect for other people’s property. (That cargo of tea they destroyed was somebody else's livelihood). Not a good ‘christian’ example of responsible protest but a bunch of hotheads who became a rioting mob. Not a good start to a constitution. But be that as it may . . . . . . Times have changed - “History is bunk”. As one of your own countrymen once famously said.

God was directly involved by miracle after miracle in the founding of our country.

God is indeed involved in political affairs and it was eventually very fortunate for Europe and the UK that the USA eventually came into the first and second world wars on the right side. Had the Americas remained part of the British Empire and not gained independence as the USA, the outcome of WW2 might have been dire indeed. God plans ahead to fulfill his own inscrutable purposes!

God never ever asks us to just take everything that evil people dish out.

Oh? Is that so? I think God sometimes does exactly that. Not always, mind you, but often.

God certainly commands us. “But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.”

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.

This too is only mostly true. It is not always in every circumstance true. There were times when Israel and Judah were under tyranny expressly raised up by God for the purpose of disciplining and punishing them for their arrogance and stiff necked waywardness. Jeremiah repeatedly warned them that they justly deserved what they were getting from the tyrants but they obstinately refused to listen and instead attacked him for preaching the truth to them and appearing to support their enemies and oppressors.

I am 100% certain of how God has led me in all of this and in what He has asked, and is asking me to do.

100% certainty is certainly not faith!

Faith is not certainty. Faith is an unshakable confidence in God’s Grace which gives us reason to hope for what is not yet seen or achieved. As believers it is the basis upon which we operate daily.

100% certainty is merely symptomatic of fanaticism. You must always leave room for God or reason to 'change your mind'. Just as Peter reviewed his ideas on association with Gentiles, after his dream of a sheet descending from heaven and a voice saying 'rise and eat'.

Circumstances are God's messages as well you know. A periodic evaluation of how we relate to others in the light of the teaching of Jesus Christ, is always a worthwhile exercise no matter what might be our age or experience.

Regards Chris.

"You are of course entitled to hold your own opinions so long as you accept that the opinions of others are not necessarily heretical just because they differ from your own. The Inquisition was led by fervent religious people convinced of the unerring ‘righteousness’ of their own opinions."

No, I have never considered other peoples' eschatological views to be heretical. I just don't want them to miss out on the blessed hope we have in Christ. How did the Inquisition get into this discussion, I'm wondering... the Inquisition was more an outgrowth of Roman Catholic ecclesiasticism and anti-Jewish hatred. We neither have an ecclesisatical government here nor do we traffic in anti-Semitism, so I have no clue as to how that enters into the discussion at hand.

"From the evidence of history it would seem that the original ‘Tea Party’ was organized by people in disguise, who had little or no respect for other people’s property. (That cargo of tea they destroyed was somebody else's livelihood). Not a good ‘christian’ example of responsible protest but a bunch of hotheads who became a rioting mob. Not a good start to a constitution. But be that as it may . . . . . . Times have changed - “History is bunk”. As one of your own countrymen once famously said."

I'm very much okay with what the original Tea Party did in response to the actions of England in the U. S. Sometimes civil disobedience is required. Were the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto immoral or un-Jewish to defend themselves when surrounded and their lives endangered? I think not. After Jesus was arrested, He told His disciples to take up once again their arms and their purses, as they would need them. I am not a pacifist.


"God is indeed involved in political affairs and it was eventually very fortunate for Europe and the UK that the USA eventually came into the first and second world wars on the right side. Had the Americas remained part of the British Empire and not gained independence as the USA, the outcome of WW2 might have been dire indeed. God plans ahead to fulfill his own inscrutable purposes!"

Yes indeed and He loves those who love His law and attempt to obey Him in every way they can, especially when doing so is not simply in one's own interest.


"God never ever asks us to just take everything that evil people dish out.

Oh? Is that so? I think God sometimes does exactly that. Not always, mind you, but often.

God certainly commands us. 'But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.'"

I am very well aware of such passages. I think you are conflating the role of the individual vis a vis other individuals and the role of the individual/group vis a vis the government. Under your reasoning, the Germans who colluded and simply capitulated to the Nazis would have been morally correct in doing so, yet they unanimously stated following the occurrence that they were guilty in so doing. The morally correct Germans were those who risked their lives resisting and opposing the Nazis, not those who gave in. It takes discernment from God to know what to do when. Prophets resisted evildoers, the Apostled John resisted the king and his head was cut off. Jesus resisted the political authorities of his day, all the believers were considered to be a clear threat to Rome. Had they not been, they would never have been persecuted.

"
This too is only mostly true. It is not always in every circumstance true. There were times when Israel and Judah were under tyranny expressly raised up by God for the purpose of disciplining and punishing them for their arrogance and stiff necked waywardness. Jeremiah repeatedly warned them that they justly deserved what they were getting from the tyrants but they obstinately refused to listen and instead attacked him for preaching the truth to them and appearing to support their enemies and oppressors."

Yes, the right response in this instance SHOULD have been repentance, which is what I am working hard to call people to in this time, along with doing everything possible to resist the anti-Christian, anti-moral, anti-people forces in this country. Nobody has even taken up arms here. We just want to be like the Swiss and be allowed to still have arms in our home so that governments will know they are not facing a disarmed and supine populace. Hitler and all dictators have always made it their policy to disarm peoples and take away their first amendment rights to free speech and assembly, along with their right to freedom of religion before they subdue and destroy them. All of these things almost happened here, and may I be so bold as to say, that unless a lot of us had prayed, we would already be experience much, much worse here had we not all interceded and prayed.

Our freedoms here now merely hang by a thread.

"I am 100% certain of how God has led me in all of this and in what He has asked, and is asking me to do.

100% certainty is certainly not faith!

Faith is not certainty. Faith is an unshakable confidence in God’s Grace which gives us reason to hope for what is not yet seen or achieved. As believers it is the basis upon which we operate daily.

100% certainty is merely symptomatic of fanaticism. You must always leave room for God or reason to 'change your mind'. Just as Peter reviewed his ideas on association with Gentiles, after his dream of a sheet descending from heaven and a voice saying 'rise and eat'. "

Well, now here I really must disagree. My faith has been validated by God's huge answers to all of my big prayers so far. I have operated on total faith ever since all of these events since 911 began and has graciously answered every time.

You can accuse me of fanaticism if you wish. I have been called everything else. But I will not change my mind when God keeps reaffirming everything over and over. I have questioned, I have doubted, and asked God if I am on the wrong track, but God keeps reaffirming everything. So no, I take exception to your assertion of me being engaged in fanaticism. Sorry.

I don't think circumstances are God's messages. I think God speaks to us IN circumstances and teaches us how to handle them. And different circumstances and situations call for different reactions.

Maybe it bothered you that I feel so strongly about how I am responding to these particular circumstances. You feel how you feel. I know how God has asked me to respond and have given a very patient 3 years putting up with a lot. But you are not me. We each are individually commended/approved/corrected by God and it is to Him alone that we are each responsible. I have had tremendous support from many, many Christians in the face of all of this and am very grateful that He heard my prayer for a righteous standard to be raised up in the form of the Tea party.

bizrsc1 :

I have no wish to lock horns with you over any of this. I don't know enough of the facts to make a fair judgment and you should know conditions in your own country better than I do.

One point though. It was James who was beheaded for opposing King Herod not John. John was the only one of 'the twelve' who died a natural death at a ripe old age.

Under your reasoning, the Germans who colluded and simply capitulated to the Nazis would have been morally correct in doing so,

Not my reasoning. "Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you", comes from a higher quarter than my humble reasoning.

His Apostle also repeated : Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.

And : See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

And another said : Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing. For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil."

These are the things we should pay attention to. Not worthless speculation about when and how the 'rapture' may take place. Because we do not take these teachings seriously but resort to the very same violent methods of defending ourselves as do the wicked, while hoping to escape tribulation in the world, the church remains powerless, it's prayer for peace goes unanswered because it is part of the problem instead of being part of the answer..

Jerusalem did not know the way of peace and paid the price for its ignorance. It did not know it's time of visitation. Neither does most of the church of today.

When his disciples excitedly produced two swords Jesus said to them, It is enough.. Luke 22:38

Blessing be upon you.

Regards Chris.

"One point though. It was James who was beheaded for opposing King Herod not John. John was the only one of 'the twelve' who died a natural death at a ripe old age"

Eh, nope, don't think so... I'm pretty biblically literate...

Matthew 14
New International Version (NIV)
John the Baptist Beheaded
14 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, 2 and he said to his attendants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
3 Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, 4 for John had been saying to him: “It is not lawful for you to have her.” 5 Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered John a prophet.
6 On Herod’s birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for the guests and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.

"Under your reasoning, the Germans who colluded and simply capitulated to the Nazis would have been morally correct in doing so,

Not my reasoning. 'Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you,' comes from a higher quarter than my humble reasoning."

No, it is still your reasoning. If Jesus had been a pacifist, he never would have saved the Roman centurion, and had he never wanted any of us to oppose evil or resist evil, corrupt or immoral authority, he never would have had the prophets or apostles do so, nor would Jesus Himself have cleared the marketplace of the moneychangers, nor would this country have ever been able to have been permitted to have been founded as I cited earlier, nor would God have allowed the Allies to even have won WWII.

No, your reasoning suggests we should all always just roll over and be gluttons for punishment, we should become completely IMmoral and let evil just run over and rule everything, AND be somehow judged as "righteous" for doing so! It sounds like false humility to me at the very minimum. That is in fact, a subtle form of antinomianism, and not very unlike pagan gnosticism. It infers the evil is in fact good, and then you are guilty of calling good evil and evil good.

... and by the way, who is resorting to violence "as do the wicked"?? The abused woman who insists that the legal system work in her favor instead of allowing a woman-beater to beat her, or a rapist to rape her?? Under your reasoning, she should not only submit to the rape but never say a word about it and allow everyone who might like to rape her to do so!! Good grief! That is just absolutely nutty!! Don't you think that this is the reasoning that men and some women (but very seldom are women over her EVER let go as being not guilty of anything!) in America have used over and over again to let themselves off from every crime and then it perpetrates more and more crime and lawlessness??

I think the do not resist the evil man maybe has to do with overlooking insults or maybe confiscations of property by those who are unbelievers or something, but America has NO excuse, with 85% of the people professing to be CHRISTIAN!! This kind of reasoning has caused lawlessness to SKYROCKET here, with rape victims repeatedly being told their stories will not be believed and rapists not prosecuted, police committing crime after crime, feeling entitled to get away with it, the corruption has become absolutely rampant.

In my prayers, I asked God to give America merciful discipline rather than God's judgment and a lot of hurricanes and storms happened that killed very few people, yet property was attacked and destroying showing people that God values people over material things. God did all of that.

Crime also went way down. God does discipline and Proverbs 18 says that it is WRONG to favor the guilty, yet this is what has happened in this country over and over and over again, always under the guise of a FALSE "righteouosness" that says good people must forever, "just forgive," and "be tolerant," and never stand for righteousness or ever insist that their God-given rights be respected.

Reasoning as you do, America and Britain would STILL be okay with SLAVERY, and John Newton would never ceased to be a slave trader and written the song "Amazing Grace" (remember the line, "It was grace that taught my heart to FEAR, and grace my fears relieved?" If nobody ever stood for righteousness, nobody would ever know what the fear of God even was!)

It is true that the Jews rejected Jesus and the Way, and Prince of Peace, but oddly they are not a very warlike people, enduring much and being very tolerant of the hatred of the Muslims. To know that one should stand for righteousness and at times, for one's own and others' rights does not make one violent. I have never blown anything up, attacked anyone with a weapon or stalked anyone. But that is NOT because I have believed that I do not have any rights at all or because others have some innate right to attack me. I haven't because that is not my values, the laws of God are written on my heart. Every time I sin, I feel greatly convicted of it, and the power of the Holy Spirit convicts me and let me know when I have grieved the heart of God. But I still see not one thing wrong in knowing and defending my rights and the rights of others. Believing this way has made me a strong defender of the rights of others, together with the conviction from the Word of God of the value of all people in the eyes of God.

The same Holy Spirit that moves me to defend the rights of others helps me to know that I am of value too, and when the situation calls for it, allows me to know that I can stand up for my own rights as well, as long as I live in a nation that professes to stand for said God-given, unalienable rights. Paul cited his citizenship as a Roman in his own defense before the Roman magistrates.

Again, following your reasoning, he ought never to have asserted such rights, nor would he have been considered right, or righteous in doing so.

Yet Scripture never, ever says that.

You seem to miss the truth that there's a time and a season for everything under God, like it says in Ecclesiastes and like the Byrds sang about in their song "Turn Turn Turn." The word of God isn't cookie cutter with one solution to every situation.

Otherwise, Dietrich Bonhoeffer never would have tried to stand up to Hitler and the "righteous Gentiles" would never have shielded the lives of any Jews from any harm. The Lord loves righteousness and those who live to do righteous works.

p. s. Chris, listen to the mp3 on this page...

http://www.vcyamerica.org/blog/2012/09/13/news-round-up