Is it possible to claim to be fully Christian if we do not attend a church, any church, regularly and/or as a member? With the advent of the Internet, and following up on the ideas of Teilhard de Chardin, I think it is. My wife and myself read the Bible, we pray together and often quietly on our own, and our home is open to anyone who cares to appreciate what we think is our Christian commitment.

I enjoy reading (a recent birthday gift from a friend was "The Overcomers" by Richard Wurmbrand, but I also enjoy C. S. Lewis and Hans Kung. However, much of my time is spent surfing the web, keeping up with international news, Christian news, philosophy, theology, and the interface between science and religion especially with regards to intelligent design.

My wife is not a computer addict or avid reader, but she is very spiritual, and enjoys sharing her ideas and experience with family and friends.

We are considering giving up our search for a local church group, a meeting or Bible study class to try to fulfil the so-called Christian commitment to be part of a local community of believers, but so far our contact and sometimes attendance at such local groups, including mainstream denominational churches, has left us sceptical to say the least.

Our latest encounter was with an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist pastor who runs his church in a small local private school. He called at our house, he has invited us to attend, he mentioned Jack Hyles (now deceased - 2001) as his mentor. We are not going to go!

You ask a very important question. How necessary is it to go to a church? Well there are two reasons to go; interaction and involvement.

Interaction: When you and your wife study the word together and the Holy Spirit shows her an insight in the passage that you are studying, does she not share it with you? In the same way, the insights that you are given are to be shared with others in the church. You could be the reason that someone else becomes stronger in their walk with Jesus.

Involvement: I am a helper in our church's clothing ministry and food pantry and I can tell you that involvement is extremely important in the church. Thanks to the donations of food and clothes from those in our church, a young mother-to-be that had moved into the area was able to get some clothes for her 2 soon to be 3 children, and a young husband who was saddled with the bills of his wife's foot amputation was able to pick up some pants for his wife. If the members of our church hadn't got involved in starting the ministry of Shepherd's Hands, where would that mother and husband be today.

As to picking the right church to go to, the best way to go is to fast and pray first, then let Jesus show you which one to get involved with. Keep the faith, He will guide you through this!

 
Thank you for your response, wolvienne.You give two very strong reasons for attending a church regularly, and even becoming a member: you say interaction and involvement. With great respect, my wife and myself find that both of these needs are fully met.

Concerning interaction, and following on from your example, if we have any spiritual insights together we do not hesitate to share them with others. As I have said, my wife is very spiritual and spends many hours talking with friends and family members, often counselling them through their difficulties with reference to the Scriptures when appropriate. She might be identified as a mystic, spiritually speaking!

Apparently I am a sage in my spiritual makeup! My outlet is through writing, and with the advent of the Internet I have nearly unlimited access to others, and receive substantial responses from others. Teilhard's ideas about a noosphere, where theistic evolution (he was a Roman Catholic priest, and a paleontologist) takes us beyond our present biosphere into a cosmic consciousness which, for him, culminates in the Second Coming of Christ.

Turning now to the business of helping others financially and materially. My wife and myself do not think that tithing is supported by the Scriptures, therefore membership of any tithing church is certainly out for us. Not that we would not attend one of their services, and give generously. We are comfortable that our charitable acts on our own, gifts of food, goods and money to anyone who asks if the spirit moves us (we are a little wary of the organised agencies), more than meets God's admonition to help the poor and needy.

We are not, however, likely to put stringent measures in place which would severely curtail our own modest lifestyle. I personally have prayed very seriously about this, and on my own I think I could easily develop an asceticism which demonstrates my commitment to God, but together my wife and myself are a team, and we both make what we think are necessary compromises. All in the sight of God.

But are there other reasons why we should attend a church?

The answer is that it is NOT necessary to go to church especially in order to fully be called or become a Christian.

My family has visited literally 100s of churches across the US and even in several foreign countries. A summary of most if not all US churches is that they are lukewarm (which is why this is called the Church Age). Therefore, my family has never benefited significantly spiritually-speaking from any church in the US, sad to say.

Many churches in the foreign countries were quite the exception. Because of the poverty the people were struck with, they were magnanimously more thankful for all that they had, including even their very life, more so than the Americans. Therefore, because of their extreme poverty, their faith had been strengthened and they truly loved God with all of their hearts, souls, and minds. And, even, despite their poverty, they gave all that they had to the needy and to the church that worked so diligently to spread the word through sacrificing missionaries. Very little of the money in the church went toward church furnishings or even tuition for the meek, humble pastor.

So, you can now probably see a glimpse of why I am utterly disgusted with US churches. A large portion of the pastors are greedy and their only concern is that everyone tithe to the church (*cough*, them) so that they can live comfortable lifestyles. The sermons skim only verses or a chapter of the Bible every week that has been preached on several times already. Yes, it is perfectly fine to preach on something that has been preached on several times, but the rest of the Bible obviously contains limitless amounts of knowledge and wisdom that God has provided and therefore needs to be studied. Even the vast majority of people that attend churches are only there to socialize or to prove that they are indeed "good Christians" and most of the time wear a facade of total righteousness and devotion when attending church even though for the other 6 days of the week, they are very much the opposite.

In conclusion, I say that, going to church is not a wrong or bad thing to do. However, most will definitely not benefit the new believer nor the experienced believer spiritually and are of no consequence.

You ask how necessary it is to go to church. First of all, those who are born again are the church. Its not something we go to. That said, the new testament shows us that God set up the church structure for a reason. He also tells us to assemble together. We may not understand the benefit of it, but its there for a reason. Some things I can think of are things like when someone is sick, we can help them, pray for them, etc... When we are in constant fellowship with one another it gives us a type of accountability. Of course there is the preaching and the worship and praying together as a body. I think one of the mistakes we make, is wanting to gather for selfish reasons. When those selfish needs are not met, we get frustrated and want no part of it. If each of us would go and be what God calls us to be, then we will be a blessing to our brothers and sisters in Christ. :)

Well, I go to church to be spiritually fulfilled. But, due to what I have stated in my last post, I find that at each church I am not. Of course it is not just about me, it is about all of the other believers and non-believers who do visit these churches. When believers and non-believers do visit these churches, are they hearing the Word of God- are they hearing about how Jesus died on the cross and perhaps things that will come such as described in Revelation OR on how important it is to tithe or how God "wants us all to be rich?" What I'm saying is that these churches are spiritually dead and cannot deeply nurture any believer nor present a godly likeness to non-believers. Why then should we continue to support these lukewarm churches by attending? Even God despises the lukewarm church much more so than a totally perverted condition - "Rev. 3:16 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth"

I must apologise for starting a new thread on a topic which was started some time ago in this thread in the Churches Forum:

http://www.praize.com/...20to%20church#p84440

My posts in that thread explain further our (my wife and myself) thinking on this, but now I want to respond to one or two points made in post 5 in this thread, by thinkingoutloud.

I agree that we do not "go to church", we are the church, however, I am not so sure that "the New Testament shows us that God set up the church structure for a reason." I need help now on finding the verses from Scripture which support this statement. The interesting word in thinkingaloud's statement is "structure", and in our experience with ICs (institutional churches in home church - HC - parlance, see my posts in the other thread) is that this structure is hierarchical, which seems to fly in the face of the biblical idea of the priesthood of all believers.

The first meetings of the earliest Christians, as described in Acts, were held in someone's home, and there were no appointed leaders. A visiting apostle would certainly give instruction and they would be respected for their presence, their knowledge of Jesus and their understanding of the Word of God. But then they would move on, leaving the group to work out their own structure. Present day churches are merely a construct of man and vulnerable to his weaknesses and his propensity for power and authoritarian status. I do not think Jesus would approve, it is not what He meant when he told Peter that on this rock he should build His church. (Matt. 16,18).

My interest in the Internet, through the suggestion that Teilhard was its patron saint (!), remains, but can it provide everything that attending a local church could provide? As we say here at Praize:

"We want to encourage all of our members to join with us and God in making Praize.com the top interactive, faith-based community on the web, free from un-Godly, secular content. We, along with your Praize brothers and sisters, appreciate your gifts."

Any thoughts from the Praize administrators?

Respectfully, if you are looking for a church where they are not lukewarm, you could either start one yourself and only allow those to come that you feel are on fire for God, or you could go to a country where the persecution is great, and there you are bound to find believers that are dead serious about their faith, because they know they may be killed or tortured that day. Of course then we may be surprised to learn we are not as on fire for God as we thought. I think all things considered, these are your two only options. Please understand, I know what you are saying. God says not to worry about the chaff, it will be mixed with the wheat. God will sort it all out. :)

Hmmmm, well I will be the first to admit I dont have all the answers. I understand what you are saying, and I probably agree much more than you think. The thing is, God says in timothy that there is the office of bishops, and deacons etc.. If no one actually goes to a meeting place, how can people have an overseer etc...? Another thought is James tells us if we are sick to call on an elder. How do you just find a spiritural elder in your town if you dont know any other belivers?These are things I have wondered. In all honesty, I went through all this a while back, and I guess for myself, I have come away with a couple of things.

1. No one is perfect, including myself. I need to be and do all the Lord teaches, and not worry about others.
2. I view meeting at a local church building as an opportunity to worship the Lord with my brothers and sisters in Christ, who may or may not be growing at the rate they should be. That is up to God to judge, not me. I am instructed to love them.
3. Another thing is its an opportunity for me to use the gifts God gives me, to edify my fellow brothers and sisters.
4. My experience has been, those who snub their noses at the local assembly, (and yes, that was me) even if some of the things they dont like are true, they are in fact not loving their brothers and sisters in Christ. They have unforgiveness, and a lot of pride, not to mention they stand judging.
These are just my opinions. I hope the Lord leads you in what you should do. :)

There are two paths to take in deciding which to do, attend or avoid. Although I do agree many churches are lukewarm and worse, I won't let hypocrites and sluggards assist in my decisions about anything at all. For many years I was a Gideon, speaking at too many churches to number or remember, encountering way too much unchristian treatment like dire warnings not to disturb the congregation over things like the blood of Jesus. Indeed, my wife and I have several times devoted our lives and resources to local churches, driven away upon arrival of new pastors, sometimes young and not wanting to retain teachers that are too old to relate to youth, and many other issues. I want to say I understand the very common thinking it isn't worth trying again.

My contributions here will be Bible-based unless the discussion doesn't involve the spiritual issues. That frame of mind is what has caused us to keep getting involved in local fellowships. The Bible makes it clear for me that if I continue to believe the Word as written in scriptures is inspired by God, I can't pick and choose parts I like. Personal emotions can't interfere with my beliefs that are based on faith in Christ.

Ever heard of Smith Wigglesworth? He was a famous evangelist, revealed at http://www.smithwigglesworth.com/ I like a story about one of his church members visiting, doubting the need for attending services. Smith kept silence while reaching the poker into the fireplace coals, separating one onto the hearth. While the pile of coals glowed bright, the lone one dimmed. The member arose understanding, saying he would be in church Sunday.

The apostles established church leadership positions with titles. Nowhere did they indicate pastors, teachers, deacons, etc. would be considered free wheeling folks with no central location to minister from. Paul preached in homes before crowds. He established churches then installed pastors to keep the work going. From the beginning Christians have been meeting together weekly in homes and soon built dedicated buildings for meetings. The concept of church buildings is not new, were known to and endorsed by the apostles and their earlier disciples. Within those many walls believers came together to worship and to sit taught by their teachers. It was the sensible way to carry on rather than have teachers and pastors and deacons go house to house teaching and preaching to each family. Today many ministers would never see each member more than once a lifetime, having too many members.

Paul indicated it is a bad habit to avoid such fellowship. Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I'm sorry to have to say it, but internet fellowship is not true face to face interaction as desired by Jesus and his apostles. We are thinking to each other, unless you have arranged for live video meetings. How will you "think" someone healed by laying on of hands? Which of us is observing how the other lives, accountable to other believers? I realize most of us here love the Lord and each other, and I am not at all condemning this fellowship. I believe it should add to physical assembly of believers.

As for tithing, would those rejecting the principle comment on 1 Cor. 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

What of supporting ministers in 1 Cor. 9:9
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

and 1 Tim. 5:18
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Where does God say all that has changed to benevolence here and there? I believe in generous benevolence, in addition to tithing. First God accepts the tithe, then greatly blesses the gift above that. He doesn't honor tips only.

Tithing is not established by the Law of Moses, was not instituted as a Jewish rite. Moses added it to the law. It is still as alive in Abraham as any other promise given him 400 years before Moses. Consider the weight Jesus put on the Abrahamic principles of faith.

I'll lighten up a bit. I have learned it is much easier to roll with the ups and downs of churches by teaming with those that actually have a mission that requires more than just dropping a few dollars in a plate and singing songs. Most churches we've attended have still not grown enough to fill pews even on Mother's Day. There is often no more outreach than passing out frozen turkeys at Thanksgiving and frozen hams for Christmas to poor people with no means to deal with food like that, having nothing in a kitchen to use, having a kitchen converted to a bedroom. On the other hand we've been member of of two mega-churches that had more outreach programs than workers dedicated to work them adequately. Today we belong to a fellowship that ministers to men that have passed through Teen Challenge and similar more advanced followup ministries, giving them a place to live and learn to work and follow the Lord, deepening their knowledge of the Word. It's tough work. It's the last stepping stone they have to enter back into society as a productive, God fearing citizen. If you can find a fellowship that is bent on actually doing an ongoing project well that pleases God, you will become happier in relation to your own involvement. But if all you do is attend, go eat lunch together, then forget the sermon title by bedtime, then I'd say you are spinning wheels and are likely to become discouraged.

Jim
·...¸><((((º>
.··´¯`·.¸.·><((((º>
·.¸.·´¯`·...¸.·><((((º>
Be fishers of men

Many thanks for your very interesting and helpful post, Jim, and I hope to get back on it soon. God bless.

Great discussion on to attend or abstain from assembling togetherin an IC, HC, or EC as members of the body of Christ for interaction and involvement.

I look to the root – what are we here for? To be an ambassador for Christ – to be thevisible representation of the Savior where He leads us throughout theearth .

For whosoever shall call upon the nameof the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they havenot believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they besent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach thegospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Rm 10:13-15

Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles,the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Theirresponsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church,the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in ourfaith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuringup to the full and complete standard of Christ. Then we will no longer beimmature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of newteaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies soclever they sound like the truth. Instead, we will speak the truth in love,growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body,the church. He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part doesits own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body ishealthy and growing and full of love. Eph 4:11-16


HomeChurches, and Institutional Churches throughout History have spread the gospel, andthe invention of radio leading to the internet and the EC (Electronic Church) hasallowed the word to be preached where access was limited. But the EC shouldonly be a substitute for an HC or IC if none is available.

The first and greatest temptation from the enemy is to think weare separate from God. But the Head – Jesus – is never separate from the body -believers/church. As earthen vessels that contain the treasure, He wants us toallow Him to live His life out through us (Gal 2:20) Jesus said his lifepurpose/anointing was to bring good news to the poor, to heal thebroken-hearted, to announce release to captives and freedom to those in prison.God sent Him to proclaim that the time has come when the Lord will save hispeople and defeat their enemies, to comfort all who mourn, to give to gladnessinstead of grief, a song of praise instead of sorrow. (If we allow Jesus to dothis through us then) we will be liketrees that the Lord himself has planted. We will all do what is right, and Godwill be praised for what he has done. They will rebuild cities that have longbeen in ruins. As His people/ambassadors, foreigners will serve you. They willtake care of your flocks
And farm your land and tend your vineyards. And we will be known as the priestsof the Lord, the servants of our God. We will enjoy the wealth of the nations.Our shame and disgrace are ended. We will live in our own land, and our wealthwill be doubled; our joy will last forever. The Lord says, “I love justice andI hate oppression and crime. I will faithfully reward my people and make aneternal covenant with them. They will be famous among the nations; Everyone whosees them will know That they are a people whom I have blessed.” Is 61:1-11 All we have to do to receive all these blessings is to let him loive His life out through us by remembering we have been crucified with Christ so we are dead to sin and alive to Christ.

Solet us all go where we can interact with all those Jesus wants to reach throughus and those whom He sends to sharpen us and become involved with small groups(HC) to be held accountable, participate with large bodies of believers (IC) that accomplishlarge goals, and share with the entire world through Praize (EC). Let’s notlimit ourselves to certain group, set days of the week or even doctrine – just goand serve as the Spirit leads. It is in Him we live, & move, & have our being - 24/7

Well put. Here's an example of what I think is a great mixture of these ministries. Sometime back I posted in a thread elsewhere concerning wives submitting to abusive husbands. One lady asked by PM where we attended church. I told her and eventually she drove here from Texas just to talk with us. She was physically bruised all over, a mental and physical wreck. The ladies gathered around her loving on her, laid hands on her praying for wisdom. We took her to lunch, then introduced her to a ministry (Potter's Clay) that helps battered women. She had no job back home, no children, just daily terror. As far as I know she has been living at the ministry still, visiting our church occasionally, but supposed to attend mostly at that ministry. She's quite happy and healthy now, gaining courage to agree to get marriage counseling as soon as her husband agrees.

I doubt she would have been so rescued if still in Texas and doing it all on her own. I could only do so much on the web, my comments mixed with opinions of many others, some telling her she must stay with the man and take whatever he dishes out, but pray for him. That is not the right occasion to listen to many conflicting suggestions. He might have killed her by now.

My point is there is a definite limit as to how deeply one can minister remotely. Even Jesus walked miles to specific homes to effect healing and deliverance. He didn't sit like a guru in a cave waiting for fans to come to him. There is still nothing like the quality of ministry one on one. It seems to me to be multiplied when done in a small church fellowship like ours. A few warm handshakes and hugs can heal instantly. We can just be around folks a few minutes and detect needs that could only be detected and dealt with in a live scenario. A couple of members were given 3 days to move out of a rented mobile home after it was sold. An offer of another month's rent was refused. The lot was to be cleared for construction of an apartment complex. It was terrible news, but the men gathered with pickups and got them moved.

Jim
·...¸><((((º>
.··´¯`·.¸.·><((((º>
·.¸.·´¯`·...¸.·><((((º>
Be fishers of men

I haven't been to church in years. Mainly because I can't seem to find a church home. Perhaps it's because I wasn't letting God show me which one to go to or perhaps I wasn't listening. I don't seem to get much fulfillment out of church because I go there to hear the word of God and learn how to apply it to my life. However, church around here has become more about the music, missions, and money and less time is spent on the message. I want to go to church. I don't want to go just to sing and give money and be asked to cook food for the potluck meal or help in the kitchen all the time. That happens a lot. When church becomes more of a chore and less about Christ, I take issue with that. So, I chose to find other ways to learn about God and get to know Him. I don't know what else to do at this time.

THE REASON FOR CHURCH IS THE BODY PRINCIPLE AND THE MINISTRY ONE PART BRINGS TO THE OTHER. ONE OF THE MOST FAULTY REASONS FOR CHURCH ATTENDANCE IS TO GIVE OF YOURSELF RATHER THAN JUST FINANCES. IF A CHURCH THAT YOU MIGHT ATTEND HAS FAULTS AND IS NOT MINISTERING ACCORDING TO THE FATHERS HEART(SOULS) THEN MAYBE THATS NOT THE PLACE TO GO.
tHE REASON FOR CHURCH IS NOT JUST THE RECPTION OF THE WORD BUT LETTING GOD IN YOU MINISTER TO OTHERS. I TOO SEE THE RESULTS IN COMPUTER MINISTRY AND SEE THREE TO FIVE SOULS A MONTH GAIN SALVATION. tHE IMPORTANT THING IS GETTING THEM INTO A BODY WHERE JUST LIKE CHILDREN THEY CAN RECEIVE MINISTRY NEEDED AND OVERSIGHT WITH TEACHING. m7th
m7th--circle of revival

The Bible clearly says we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Many believe that means go to church. The truth is it means to gather with fellow Believers and you can do that anywhere. Jesus did not establish the religious organizations we call "church". Jesus called out followers. When the Bible refers to "Church" it is talking about the Body of Believers NOT a religious organization. I have come to the conclusion after many decades as a follower of the Lord Jesus that churches have done more to hinder the cause of Christ than Satan and his demons. Churches have divided the Body into many factions, each claiming to be the "right" church while they feed their congregations erroneous teachings and make the religious organization the center of their ministry. The book of Acts tells us that 3,000 people were saved in one day. The people were moved and empowered by the Holy Spirit. This has never been duplicated since man established the "church". Attending a church is not a requirement to be a Believer. In fact, I believe attending a church can be detrimental to one's faith.