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Theology: Bibliology: Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners): Edit Log

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Re: [rdrcofe] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners)

Your answer to my " Previous Question:. Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ?"

That would be when you received 'circumcision' of the heart. Rom.2:29. The indwelling of The Holy Spirit. The 'renewal' in the Holy Spirit. Tit.3:5, Rom.12:2. Same applies to "Holy" infants baptized in the 'Promise' that that would eventually be their experience, as God calls them into His service as ministers of the 'message of reconciliation'. God does not 'entrust' 'unclean' persons with that message. Only those who are themselves reconciled with God can understand it or convince others of its content.

From Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: - They [Apostles & Believers] ought to know if Christ Jesus was in them, by the influences, graces, and indwelling of his Spirit, by his kingdom set up in their hearts. Let us question our own souls; either we are true Christians, or we are deceivers. Unless Christ be in us by his Spirit, and power of his love, our faith is dead, and we are yet disapproved by our Judge.

Leads me back to my original post of there being a misconception of the Gospel. In your above answer the words "indwelling" & "know" are used. We know that demonic spirits can possess or 'indwell' a human host so maybe it is my too literal interpretation that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an actuality. He - the third person of the Trinity resides in my spirit. Mr. Henry uses the term ought to 'know if Christ Jesus - God the Son - lives in them. the teensy bit of Hebrew I've been taught that when a man & woman were married and consummated it and became one flesh the term translated that 'He knew' his wife. (The adulterous just 'lay' with her)

So I asked the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' or did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

And your answer was

There is a possible misunderstanding concerning the notion that 'a new creation' means you have become a 'different, now living, person' from the 'now dead, previous sinner'. We are all still 'sinners' because ALL have sinned, and still do. Our 'Righteousness' is merely imputed and is Christ's alone. The difference is that we 'understand things differently after the Holy Spirit indwells us'. Everything is become for us a new creation. Everything is re-evaluated. We see our selves differently, we see Christ differently, we see God differently, we see our natural disposition and inclination to sin, differently. Rom.7:24-25.

"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, HE is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

HE :

does not appear in the Greek original of the text of 2 Cor.5:17. It says literally in English:

Therefore if anyone [is] in Christ [he is, there is, it is] a new creation the old things have passed away behold has come into being [the] new.

The words shown in brackets are not in the original Greek of the scriptures.

There is the option in Greek of it being any of the possibilities shown in brackets. i.e

[He] is a new creation.
[It] is a new creation.
[There] is a new creation.

All three do not actually appear in the Greek. The translators of our Bibles have to guess which is most probably what Paul intended to say.

I prefer [there is a new creation], meaning that when we receive the Holy Spirit internally, within our soul, (the being originally created by God in his image that was good, Gen.1:31, our spirit), we are, (at last), enabled by The Holy Spirit, to see EVERYTHING, (the entire creation), differently. We view our own sin differently, Rom.7:24-25, we view Christ as (Lord and Savior), differently 2 Cor.5:16. we view God differently, Rom.8:15. John 16:8.

We are 'saints' by virtue only of our 'renewal in the Holy Spirit', and that is ALL of God and none of our own doing. We go on from there to be 'Sanctified' and that requires our cooperation with God.

So since we both have experienced the renewal in the Holy Spirit, then we are in agreement that we are saints - who sometimes miss the mark (sin)

A parent believes by the testimony of The Holy Spirit within them, and that by faith alone. They believe God's promise in scripture and experience it in the indwelling of The Holy Spirit in their life.

I know that two and two add up to four, there is nothing I can do to change that, but I 'believe' that I have received the spirit of adoption, whereby I cry, Abba, Father. Rom.8:15.

That is the difference between what we know to be true, and what we believe to be true. That is the power of faith.

And that returns us to what I call a misconception of the Gospel. We ARE indwelt with the Spirit of God which makes us a new creation because the old me passed away (died) when I was crucified with Christ & continue to present myself a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"That their hearts might be comforted being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Your quote of Col 2:2-3 above further confirms my assurance that I am a blessed child of God for God can not lie. He gave us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the earnest deposit of His promise of everlasting life.

You can't know, you can only believe.

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

And we believe by Faith and faith has quantifiable substance and actual evidence that Jesus did - signs, wonders & miracles

Jesus was The Word of God. Jn.1:1.
Jesus said: "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jn.12:47.
God said: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa.55:11.
Jesus said: "all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." Jn.5:23.
Jesus said: "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" Lk.12:50.

What was accomplished? The NEW Covenant that it is not by keeping the law but by receiving the gift of eternal life
What was that 'baptism'? Jesus' death on the cross for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin
What was Christ's mission on earth, which he, 'The Word of God' was sent forth to accomplish, and would not return to God without prospering in the thing whereto God had sent it? That He would be the sacrificial lamb that would take away the sins of the world

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Jn.19:30.

Dictionary Definition g5055. (unfortunately Praize can't cope here with the actual Greek word); teleo; from 5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): — accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
AV (26) - finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, misc 3;
to bring to a close, to finish.

So Jesus came to save the world, not to judge it.
And: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, no longer holding their sins against them.

BUT: He that rejects Jesus, and receives not his words, has one that will judge them: the word that Jesus has spoken, the same shall judge them in the last day. Jn.12:48.

So even though everyone in the world is 'saved' by Christ, and God no longer holds their sins against them, they will still be held accountable for rejecting the 'message of reconciliation' and refusing themselves to be reconciled with God, whenever they heard it preached 'in the power of the Holy Spirit'. They will be judged by the words they have refused to hear and condemn themselves 'out of their own mouths'. Lk.19:22.

Not hearing, is not however the same as refusing to listen and heed. All those who have never heard Christ's words nor rejected him, are 'saved', because God no longer holds their sins against them until they refuse to hear 'the message of reconciliation'.

This might just be semantics or a different 'flavor', but what are the new-born & those who have never heard actually saved from since according to Romans 1:18-20 - ALL have heard and they are without excuse and verse 21 continues showing their refusal to honor God.?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is why the gospel is a "Two Edged Sword". Heb.4:12. Rev.1:16, 2:12. Because it cuts both ways.

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.

It is Christ who stands at the door knocking to be let into your house/body to live inside you to show the world the signs, wonders & miracles ONLY He can do through His children. So I am not sure why you imagine yourself as a nuisance and trying to work hard to find out what went wrong - we are all sinners in need of a savior - and trying to find a way to fix IT. Jesus already fixed IT - the sins of the world. God made everything else and He said it was GOOD. Even Jesus went about doing GOOD - what He saw his Father doing and saying what His father said.

I was not referring to our relationship with Christ or to becoming a believer. I was referring to our task 'in the world' as redeemed disciples of Christ. Finding out what causes things to go wrong, includes such things as finding a cure for cancer, blindness, plague and pestilence. Designing safe housing in earthquake zones. Discovering better ways of using the planet's resources, to the benefit of everyone, not just the few. In other words "Doing greater and more numerous things than He, in his limited 32 years time on earth was able to do while "Going about doing good". Acts.10:38.

Jesus didn't save us just for us to become all religious and preachy. He has saved us to bring the whole human race into fuller understanding of THE TRUTH. The whole truth about everything. And that shall "Set us Free" from all the misery that encumbers us, the whole human race.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb.12:1-13.

We should ask ourselves, "Am I going about doing Good" as Jesus did. We don't need to perform miracles, we just need to apply ourselves to problem solving the way he did.

Jesus 'solved the problem' by healing the sick, making the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, the dead to live, cast out demons all by the power of God. He tried to teach the twelve how to do the signs, wonders & miracles that he did. He even tried teaching them how to feed the 5000 with 2 fish and 5 loaves in a youngster's lunch (probably 2 sardines & 5 crackers) & they responded it would take a year's salary to go buy that much food. He even taught them how to calm a storm & that if they (we) gave it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
He then Commissioned them to

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

He didn't teach them how to do natural things and up until the invention of the steam engine in the early 1800's life was much like He lived it. Humans had to rely on God to send the rain to make their food grow, for their livestock give birth, etc. Daniel 12:4 says that in the end times people will be going to and fro and knowledge will increase. That is certainly happening at an amazing/alarming rate and mostly not for the good. On this side of the pond more and more parents are refusing to have their children get vaccinated as there are more links to the autism & childhood cancer. Yes there is fewer if any smallpox, polio, or even measles out breaks but has man invented miracle drugs that have held these diseases at bay but only creating further need for chemical medicines with death-causing side effects. But that is price of turning to man's inventions instead of allowing God to manifest His presence through us with the same faith-building signs, wonders & miracles that stopped a 12 year flow of blood just by touching the hem of Jesus' garment or being healed when Peter's shadow fell on them.

Let us walk by faith and not by sight and trust Him with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding, but acknowledge Him in all our ways & He will direct our path.

Last edited by:

jamesgodson: Feb 10, 2019, 7:28 PM

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