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Theology: Bibliology: Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners): Edit Log

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Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners)
jamesgodson: Hi

MY Previous Question:. Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ?

That would be when you received 'circumcision' of the heart. Rom.2:29. The indwelling of The Holy Spirit. The 'renewal' in the Holy Spirit. Tit.3:5, Rom.12:2. Same applies to "Holy" infants baptized in the 'Promise' that that would eventually be their experience, as God calls them into His service as ministers of the 'message of reconciliation'. God does not 'entrust' 'unclean' persons with that message. Only those who are themselves reconciled with God can understand it or convince others of its content.

From Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary: - They [Apostles & Believers] ought to know if Christ Jesus was in them, by the influences, graces, and indwelling of his Spirit, by his kingdom set up in their hearts. Let us question our own souls; either we are true Christians, or we are deceivers. Unless Christ be in us by his Spirit, and power of his love, our faith is dead, and we are yet disapproved by our Judge.

Really the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' or did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

There is a possible misunderstanding concerning the notion that 'a new creation' means you have become a 'different, now living, person' from the 'now dead, previous sinner'. We are all still 'sinners' because ALL have sinned, and still do. Our 'Righteousness' is merely imputed and is Christ's alone. The difference is that we 'understand things differently after the Holy Spirit indwells us'. Everything is become for us a new creation. Everything is re-evaluated. We see our selves differently, we see Christ differently, we see God differently, we see our natural disposition and inclination to sin, differently. Rom.7:24-25.

"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, HE is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

HE :

does not appear in the Greek original of the text of 2 Cor.5:17. It says literally in English:

Therefore if anyone [is] in Christ [he is, there is, it is] a new creation the old things have passed away behold has come into being [the] new.

The words shown in brackets are not in the original Greek of the scriptures.

There is the option in Greek of it being any of the possibilities shown in brackets. i.e

[He] is a new creation.
[It] is a new creation.
[There] is a new creation.

All three do not actually appear in the Greek. The translators of our Bibles have to guess which is most probably what Paul intended to say.

I prefer [there is a new creation], meaning that when we receive the Holy Spirit internally, within our soul, (the being originally created by God in his image that was good, Gen.1:31, our spirit), we are, (at last), enabled by The Holy Spirit, to see EVERYTHING, (the entire creation), differently. We view our own sin differently, Rom.7:24-25, we view Christ as (Lord and Savior), differently 2 Cor.5:16. we view God differently, Rom.8:15. John 16:8.

We are 'saints' by virtue only of our 'renewal in the Holy Spirit', and that is ALL of God and none of our own doing. We go on from there to be 'Sanctified' and that requires our cooperation with God.

I am unable surmise that the ones who have received the righteousness of God and the mind of Christ would have any fear, as Jeanne would suggest,of not knowing their fate in the harvest. And since it will be a harvest of the dead & the living, how would a parent or a child know if he/they were born holy or born unclean?

A parent believes by the testimony of The Holy Spirit within them, and that by faith alone. They believe God's promise in scripture and experience it in the indwelling of The Holy Spirit in their life.

I know that two and two add up to four, there is nothing I can do to change that, but I 'believe' that I have received the spirit of adoption, whereby I cry, Abba, Father. Rom.8:15.

That is the difference between what we know to be true, and what we believe to be true. That is the power of faith.

"That their hearts might be comforted being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Your quote of Col 2:2-3 above further confirms my assurance that I am a blessed child of God.

Indeed it does! An assurance though is not a 'fact'. It is a reliable promise. A reliable promise from God, who's promises are reliable by definition. 2 Cor.1:22, 5:5; Eph.1:14. An 'earnest' is a down-payment or promissory note.

If I assure you that I owe you £10.00 you may have an assurance that you will receive £10.00 from me sometime, but you have not got your £10.00 yet, and neither will you ever get it if I prove untrustworthy.

An assurance of salvation is only as good as The Word of God. Fortunately, by faith, we believe that God keeps His Word. That is why we can baptise our infants.

So all are "saved" due to God reconciling the whole world to Himself, but some who don't 'reconcile' themselves to God through their gratitude towards his forgiveness are "unsaved"/lost and nobody can tell who is who until the day of the harvest? Is this the doctrine of the Church of England which is much like the Baptist or back in the 1600's - Anabaptists? And farther back to John Calvin? Then I understand why you answered my question that 'I can't know if I am saved after believing in my heart that Jesus is LORD and confessing with my mouth that God raised Him from the dead?' Romans 10:9-10.

You can't know, you can only believe.

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Jesus was The Word of God. Jn.1:1.
Jesus said: "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jn.12:47.
God said: "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa.55:11.
Jesus said: "all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." Jn.5:23.
Jesus said: "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" Lk.12:50.

What was accomplished?
What was that 'baptism'?
What was Christ's mission on earth, which he, 'The Word of God' was sent forth to accomplish, and would not return to God without prospering in the thing whereto God had sent it?

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Jn.19:30.

Dictionary Definition g5055. (unfortunately Praize can't cope here with the actual Greek word); teleo; from 5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): — accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
AV (26) - finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, misc 3;
to bring to a close, to finish.

So Jesus came to save the world, not to judge it.
And: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, no longer holding their sins against them.

BUT: He that rejects Jesus, and receives not his words, has one that will judge them: the word that Jesus has spoken, the same shall judge them in the last day. Jn.12:48.

So even though everyone in the world is 'saved' by Christ, and God no longer holds their sins against them, they will still be held accountable for rejecting the 'message of reconciliation' and refusing themselves to be reconciled with God, whenever they heard it preached 'in the power of the Holy Spirit'. They will be judged by the words they have refused to hear and condemn themselves 'out of their own mouths'. Lk.19:22.

Not hearing, is not however the same as refusing to listen and heed. All those who have never heard Christ's words nor rejected him, are 'saved', because God no longer holds their sins against them until they refuse to hear 'the message of reconciliation'.

This is why the gospel is a "Two Edged Sword". Heb.4:12. Rev.1:16, 2:12. Because it cuts both ways.

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.

It is Christ who stands at the door knocking to be let into your house/body to live inside you to show the world the signs, wonders & miracles ONLY He can do through His children. So I am not sure why you imagine yourself as a nuisance and trying to work hard to find out what went wrong - we are all sinners in need of a savior - and trying to find a way to fix IT. Jesus already fixed IT - the sins of the world. God made everything else and He said it was GOOD. Even Jesus went about doing GOOD - what He saw his Father doing and saying what His father said.

I was not referring to our relationship with Christ or to becoming a believer. I was referring to our task 'in the world' as redeemed disciples of Christ. Finding out what causes things to go wrong, includes such things as finding a cure for cancer, blindness, plague and pestilence. Designing safe housing in earthquake zones. Discovering better ways of using the planet's resources, to the benefit of everyone, not just the few. In other words "Doing greater and more numerous things than He, in his limited 32 years time on earth was able to do while "Going about doing good". Acts.10:38.

Jesus didn't save us just for us to become all religious and preachy. He has saved us to bring the whole human race into fuller understanding of THE TRUTH. The whole truth about everything. And that shall "Set us Free" from all the misery that encumbers us, the whole human race.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb.12:1-13.

We should ask ourselves, "Am I going about doing Good" as Jesus did. We don't need to perform miracles, we just need to apply ourselves to problem solving the way he did.

"Are you safely in the 'net' or might you be winnowed out since you claim that no one can know until the day of reckoning/judgement day? or do you know that it is Christ in you the hope of Glory and that just as the disciples experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit, you too are filled with the Holy spirit so that out of your innermost being will flow rivers of living water and that the life you now live in the flesh you live by the faith OF the Son of Man (JESUS) who loves you and gave Himself (died) for you?

Because if you don't have that assurance, your 'faith' is no better than Jeanne's atheism. Instead of being confident in hearing 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant/steward of God's talents entrusted to you, you don't know if you will hear - "Depart from me, I never knew you" as you try and explain all the hard work of trying to find out what went wrong and trying to play God by trying to fix IT.

As an old country boy once told me, "you're either a saint or you ain't"

To be fair to you, most of what you wrote here was based upon a misunderstanding of what I had written regarding using Jesus and prayer as an excuse for not trying to find solutions to the world's problems by using the brains God has given us.

I am quite 'safely in the net', thank you, and have in all probability, at 73 years old, had assurance to that effect rather longer than you may have yourself.

It is The Holy Spirit who gives us that assurance, but knowing is what God does, we rely on faith. which means relying on God.

My life is hid with Christ in God. Col.3:3.

For all you know, you may be going to hear "Depart from me, I never knew you". As a friend and brother I sincerely hope you never do. We cannot ever rule out the possibility though, because it depends on our state of 'Sanctification' not on our own perhaps imagined 'assurance'. That is why the warning is there in the scripture, it is not intended for unbelievers you know. Clearly these 'servants' were sufficiently 'unsanctified' to deserve the admonishing, but did not consider themselves undeserving even of congratulation from their Lord.

Do you suppose any of the 'servants' who may be hearing these discomforting words will be expecting to hear them? I don't think so! I think they will be very unpleasantly surprised.

I also think quite a few who hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant", will be quite astonished that Jesus would address them in such a fashion. Don't you?

Being a 'saint' is nothing to be proud of. Pride has been the downfall of many a would be 'saint'. In fact it was pride that got a certain 'Angel of Light' cast out of heaven.

In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

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rdrcofe: Feb 4, 2019, 2:52 PM

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