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Theology: Bibliology: Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners): Edit Log

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Re: [jamesgodson] Sin Imputed (We Are Born Sinners)
jamesgodson: Hi

Q. Holy & unclean - probable some definitions needed. Holy is often translated as set apart and unclean would mean they were flawed in some form but not irreparably harmed.
In my personal experience - I was born of both unbelieving parents, who were born on both the paternal & maternal sides to unclean parents. Therefore I was born unclean. I have no further ancestral knowledge than my mother's grandmother's obituary that said that 'no one had ever heard her speak a disparaging word'.

I am being conformed into the image of His son so that God has a LARGE family, but is that where holy children born of holy parents would be considered nephews & nieces to Jesus and grandchildren to God?

A. A couple of comments from me here James, but first let me congratulate you on a first class reply to my previous post. It looks as if our conversation may prove very productive and enlightening, rather than a battle of wills and wits, like so many internet 'debates' seem to degenerate into. This is more like the 'olden days' of Praize.

"Holy" = Set apart, (often, for use by God), absolutely correct.
"Unclean" = not to be used, eaten, associated with etc. (not necessarily either 'sinful' or 'damned'). Infants don't start out 'sinful' they are incapable of sin, along with most other things at birth. They will inevitably grow up to become sinners though, we all do. That is why Paul can honestly say "All have sinned" because he is writing only to adults who have already grown up and can read or hear his words, not to new born infants who can't yet read nor understand. (Let's be logical about it).

So 1 Cor.7:14 is not saying that the children of believers are 'saved' and the children of unbelievers are 'damned'. It is saying that the children of believers are 'set apart', which the children of unbelievers, (as far as we know), are not, until they become believing, and therefore fit for service to God.

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus." Gal.1:15-17.

Paul's life history interestingly illustrates the way in which God operates in the children of the faithful. Though 'Set Apart by God' from his conception in the womb, it was not until his Damascus Road experience that he was 'Called by God's Grace' and 'Christ was revealed in him', for the express purpose of 'Preaching Christ among the Gentiles'. Paul's view of the process by which he came to be 'saved' only culminated in 'baptism', it was not in his estimation 'initiated' by it. Neither do we believe 'baptism' initiates the process in the infants of believers. It merely affirms the fact that God has 'set them apart' and like Paul, will be used by God to fulfill God's purpose for them.

"The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work"
. 2 Tim 2:19-21.

It is highly likely that your election in God's Grace is linked to your mothers grandmother's faith. This is however a 'secret of The Lord' and not something God want's all and sundry to know.

We are commissioned and 'entrusted' by God to tell of The Gospel, which is the message of reconciliation, to all who will hear us. Then leave the issue of 'election' entirely to God.

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut.29:29

"The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him;
and he will shew them his covenant."

"But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him,
and his righteousness unto children's children;
To such as keep his covenant,
and to those that remember his commandments to do them."

"The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation".

It is not at all unreasonable to assume that since God has proclaimed His intention that the transgressions of the parents will be repeated by their children's children through to the third and fourth generation, then God's Gracious Mercy and his Covenant promise to Abraham and his yet to be conceived son Isaac, will be extended to at least the third and fourth generation of those that love God and keep covenant with Him.

"Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the Lord, and with your children's children will I plead." Jer.2:9.

It would seem that the Lord 'pleaded' with you to keep the covenant you inherited perhaps from your mother's grandmother. In my own case it was almost certainly my grandmother. I still have her family bible. So by placing your faith in Jesus Christ and submitting to the yoke of his discipline and discipleship you have become, along with your own children, set apart and "Holy to the Lord".

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,

“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again,
“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham
. Heb.2:10-16.

Q. So is it out of our gratitude (love) that we reconciled ourselves to God? OR is it because He first loved us and by His GRACE (unmerited favor) we have been saved through faith and that not of ourselves but it is a gift of God?

A. Since salvation is 'a gift of God' then obviously we can do nothing to 'earn' it. We 'earn' wages and the wages of sin is death.

All you can do with a gift is either 'receive' it or 'reject it'. There is no question of anyone 'deserving' it, but without LOVE we cannot profit from God's 'gift' of salvation.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing". 1 Cor.13:2-3.

Q. Since all my sins were in the future of Christ's death on the cross where they were all forgiven when did I change from being born 'unclean' to having the mind of Christ and having the righteousness of God in Christ? Really the question is that if I have been reconciled by God & accepted his propitiation for my sins am I still 'a sinner saved by grace' of did that old man pass away (die) & now I am a new creation - 'a saint who sometimes sins'?

A. As I conjectured, it might be that you were not in fact born 'unclean', because of the faith of your mother's mother, perhaps. In any case though it matters not a jot because God has entrusted the 'message of reconciliation' to his servants to bring 'unclean' and 'clean' ALL into the 'net' of The Kingdom. Then the sorting will begin, but it will be the angels which do the job, not us. Matt.13:47-52.

Your salvation dates from the foundation of the world, (if you have an assurance of that fact then you are blessed).

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Col.2:2-3.

Most people think their salvation dates from when they 'gave themselves to Jesus' or some such similar nonsense. As if we can excuse ourselves, up until we gave in and finally accepted it, from our rejection of God's free and full salvation, won for us all by Christ, and graciously provided for us sinners, from the foundation of the world.

Q. But doesn't the Bible say

'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' (salvation)

Or are you saying that the Bible says

'if it be His will' that some might be saved, some might be healed, some might prosper? Or is he no respecter of persons and what He has done for other He will do for me?

So if I am understanding your opinion, I can't know if I am saved after believing in my heart that Jesus is LORD and confessing with my mouth that God raised Him from the dead? Romans 10:9-10

I am being conformed into the image of His son so that God has a LARGE family, but is that where holy children born of holy parents would be considered nephews & nieces to Jesus and grandchildren to God?

A. Of course you can't know. You can only have faith, without which you cannot please God. Heb.11:6. If you are blessed with an 'assurance of salvation' that is even better, but you still don't know. The only time you will know, is when you hear the words of our Lord saying:

"Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matt.25:21 and 23.

Only then will you know as you are known. 1 Cor.13:12.

Q? Both Abraham & Moses 'argued' with God! Abraham pleaded for Sodom and Moses begged God not to destroy the Israelites in the wilderness.

So God's purpose for His children is to Love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul & strength and love our neighbor as ourselves and do even greater works then He (Jesus) did by going into all the world, and preaching the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So no matter whether we were born holy or unclean everyone who believes shall be saved.

It seems this was a statement rather than a question. I don't disagree with it though, and it does not seem to need an answer.

Doing greater things than Jesus did, involves more than just preaching the gospel though. That is certainly what we have been entrusted with, but because Jesus has gone to the father it is our responsibility to find out as much about how the universe works as we are able and use that knowledge for the benefit of the whole of mankind. Had Jesus not gone to the Father we would still be knocking on His door asking for miracle healings and becoming a real nuisance, instead of doing the hard work of finding out for ourselves what's gone wrong and then finding ways to fix it, on his behalf.

So we don't have to 'argue' with Him about it - He has revealed it through the promise to Abraham that the whole world would be blessed (saved) through him. And what could we receive more than having the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead to dwell inside of us and make alive our mortal bodies as we wait for our immortal bodies to live eternally in His kingdom as joint heirs with Christ.

Also not a question, but a statement I am in agreement with.

Q. So reverting back to the thread's intentions: Were you, Chris, born 'Holy' or 'unclean' like me? And if holy then why did you need to be reconciled to God? Oh, I almost forgot that you said that it was out of your gratitude for Him reconciling you to Himself through Christ's atonement. Being born unclean, I am thankful that it was not by my works of righteousness which I have done but it was according to His mercy He saved me by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5

Choose you this day whom you will serve, for it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement.

For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but will have everlasting life.

A. I believe now that I was born "Holy" to God, but certainly became 'unclean' through trespasses and sin, just as every other human infant, except Jesus Christ, has done. From the womb however God has preordained that I should serve His purpose, and that He has never broken Covenant with me, for the sake of the covenant betwixt one of my forefathers or foremothers, because God never breaks his promises. I unfortunately was a 'hard fish to catch', but God nevertheless contrived to get me into his net. I am now very grateful to Him for that, even though the experience at the time was rather uncomfortable and until I was safely in the net, I was certainly not cooperating with my redeemer, and in the process damaging myself and others and frustrating God's purposes planned for me.

Every 'Unclean' or 'Holy', sinner who finally submits and avails themselves of God's free gift of salvation, has only God to thank for it. God works in a mysterious way his wonders to perform.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: Feb 3, 2019, 8:11 AM

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