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Prayer: The Power of Prayer: Re: [jeanne53] IS PRAYER A REAL CONVERSATION WITH THE FATHER OF ALL?: Edit Log

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Hi Jeanne: Hi Jim: Hope you are holding out against our opposition, in the power of The Spirit of Christ.


And this is most likely true in both the literal and figurative sense. But our understanding what it implies may differ according to our preconceptions.

Clearly you believe it means becoming a 'Christian' with all that that entails. That's fine but there might be other ways of looking at that statement which also make good scriptural sense.

Recently I had a conversation with someone who believed much as you do about how we obtain God's willingness to "no longer count our sins against us."

[MPaul] To believe on him includes who he is and what he has done.
Jesus in the gospel said:
" are from beneath; I am from above..if you believe not that 'I AM' you will die in your sins" Jn 8:23

But, by your own reasoning you seem to believe that Christ has only taken some of the sins of some of the world and the rest remain 'held against them' eternally if they died having not actually having believed in and become a follower of Christ.

Whereas John The Baptist and St Paul, using slightly different words, seemed to be convinced that Jesus 'Taketh away the sins of The [whole] World' Jn. 1:29, not just the sins of some selected ones from it, who were fortunate enough to hear and respond positively to the 'message of reconciliation' addressed to 'The World', through Christ's ambassadors / workers / disciples etc.

The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Matt.9:37. It may be a mistake to think that it is our job as workers to save some of the harvest for God. In fact the whole harvest is already God's, we are just recruiting more workers like ourselves from God's harvest, so that, 'The Kingdom of God on Earth' increases and hell is pushed back to its very gates. Matt.16:18.

[MPaul] Not sure how you conclude the first part of that. That is like saying that you think the bloke that wins the lottery but doesn’t realise it and never collects, benefits from his good fortune. Seems a bit like the Calvinists’ limited atonement concept.
No, the gospel is freely available to all, it is just that not all avail themselves of its opportunity..unfortunately..I wish they would

First, (God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. I take that to mean everyone who has ever or will ever live), the effect of which was, God no longer holds their sins against them.

Surely the whole point of The Judgment, as you seem to view it, is for God to actually hold sinners sins against them, try them, declare them guilty, if guilty, and hand down a suitable sentence on them or acquit them on the grounds that, though guilty as everyone else, they became a Christian sometime during their earthly life. (If they lived at the right place, in the right time, and heard the right Gospel from a Holy Spirit motivated servant of God. A really lucky chain of circumstances).

That is more like EVERYBODY getting a free winning lottery ticket but when they go to collect their free prize many are however disgruntled when they discover that they are actually no wealthier than anyone else who got a free winning ticket. Matt.20:12. Some rejoice in their good fortune, (they are better off than before), while others are resentful that they are not substantially better off than everyone else. They accuse the lottery organizer of incompetence or downright injustice and claim that they would rather have nothing at all than see such a bunch of no good losers and ne're do wells getting the same prize as them, and all this scandalously without actually anyone having even BOUGHT, (i.e. paid for and therefore, deserved), a ticket for themselves.

But what about the ones who didn't even reclaim their winnings? You ask.

Well they still have a winning ticket. God's forbearance of The World is not something we have to 'cash in' like a lottery ticket or get signed off like a money off voucher.

When God is no longer holding a person's sins against them, they don't even need to 'know it' to reap the actual benefit. Rom.4:7. However, a person who previously believed themselves condemned by God, but now discovers they are no longer under the threat of nemesis by a vengeful and retributive God, might be more likely to respond with gratitude, even love. Luke 7:47.

That is the reason we preach The Gospel of Reconciliation. Mainly because we have taken the step ourselves to respond to God's initiative in being reconciled with 'us' in Christ, by being ourselves reconciled with Him, and by demonstrating that reconciliation by promulgating the message of reconciliation, He has entrusted us with.

Namely, that: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them".

And: "Love covers a multitude of sins". 1 Pet. 4:8.

Atheists are closer to believing that "God no longer holds their sins against them" than are most Christians. Most Christians, it seems are convinced God holds atheists sins against them, which quite contradicts what St Paul wrote in Holy Scripture, and they seem happy to believe the opposite to what God has said is true.

Atheists could quite possibly be God's 'free lottery winners' in that they neither try to fool God by pretending to be 'good' when they don't want to be or demand special treatment from God because they feel they have kept the rules. In fact they aren't really sure that God exists at all, but are pretty sure He doesn't, because He has never appeared to them to settle the matter once and for all, in terms they can find convincing. They must rely entirely on their own conscience and character to know and do the right thing. Jeanne is just such a person and God loves her for it. God has freedom of choice, Jeanne is made in God's image and likeness, she therefore also has freedom of choice, as do we all.

Telling such a person, that "God no longer holds their sins against them", has no meaning because they have settled in their own mind that God is neither pleased or displeased with them, because God simply is not real, (For Them). Just as you have settled in your mind that Christ, and faith in Him is the way to God.

If God is real, then there will come a time when they will know that God is real and recognize how He has always known and loved them, just for who they are, not for what they have done. The same for you and me. According to St Paul, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them. If God is real, there will be much to learn, for everybody and everyone will know it.

If God is not real, (which you and I doubt, but Jeanne believes), if God is not real, then none of us have anything to fear. We have no recollection of before we entered the world, and we will have no recollection after departing from it. If God is not real, we will never know it.
In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet.4:8b.

Last edited by:

rdrcofe: May 16, 2018, 12:50 PM

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  • Post edited by rdrcofe Post edited by rdrcofe (Veteran) on May 16, 2018, 12:50 PM